Fender Tonemaster DR

Discussion in 'Digital & Modeling Gear' started by Gasp100, Sep 7, 2019.

  1. JoeB63

    JoeB63 Supporting Member

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    And that's probably one reason why there's no loop. It would have required an additional A/D/A conversion to put the loop between the modeled amp and the IR -- meaning, more parts and complexity.
     
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  2. cliffc8488

    cliffc8488 Member

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    Our spring reverb is great. You just need to put it before the amp block as this is equivalent to how it would be in the amp. If you put it after the amp block it won't sound the same.
     
  3. phil_m

    phil_m Supporting Member

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    Kemper's spring reverb is very good... Have you actually tried it? Fractal's is fine as well. I actually have a hard time believing Fender's digital models (which is what they're using in these amps) would be any better than either of those companies' takes on it.
     
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  4. relix63

    relix63 Supporting Member

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    That's good info that I didn't know. I think I always put it after the amp in patches I set up.
     
  5. MixMinisterMike

    MixMinisterMike Supporting Member

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    I think this is one of the biggest mistakes people make with modeling (I spent years missing this point). Onboard reverbs are always before the power amp and cab!
     
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  6. Guitardave

    Guitardave Supporting Member

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    OOH - I know this one.

    Because when your hearing goes you don't realize you are yelling all the time!!
     
  7. jmtaylor22

    jmtaylor22 Member

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    I don't consider an effects loop an exotic/niche feature. I would venture about 50% or more of modern amps have them. The reason the 65 RI do not because they are intended as a RI. This amp is not a RI and already has additional features. Again to me a loop is an obvious thing to include on an updated classic.
     
  8. Guitardave

    Guitardave Supporting Member

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    I can't believe they left the loop off of it...it makes zero sense.

    I doubt Fender is paying attention but I bet there's a big chunk of the modeling crowd (myself included) that would pony up their price to have a great sounding Twin, that I could also bypass the tone stack and use a Marshall or other preamp from a modeling unit. That's what I do with my tube amps and it sounds great.

    Fender literally ignored an incredibly obvious application like that (or all the people who like to run time based stuff in an effects loop).
     
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  9. jmtaylor22

    jmtaylor22 Member

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    This is exactly how I would use it as well. I already use a cab + quilter with my helix, in theory the twin could be an even better all in one for this.
     
  10. stilwel

    stilwel Member

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    It wasn't ignored and was definitely discussed at length, but ultimately we decided to not include an effects loop for a couple of reasons:
    1. Countless Twins and DR's have been sold over the last 50+ years without them and yet they remain beloved.
    2. Placing the loop appropriately in the signal path would incur an additional latency hit that we felt was detrimental to the playing "feel" of the amp, which was one of the most important subjective criteria with these models.
    Nobody likes time based effects more than this guy...and I'm perfectly happy running everything into the front of the TMDR with it set to edge of breakup sounds.

    Believe it or not, we appreciate the spirited debate. We know you guys care as much as we do about gear and great tone!
     
  11. MixMinisterMike

    MixMinisterMike Supporting Member

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    This is a great point. Latency certainly is a reason why plenty of guitarists do not connect with digital gear.
     
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  12. metropolis_4

    metropolis_4 Member

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    And I’m sure there was a lot of consideration of the fact that a lot of the players they’d be trying to win over would be comparing these to their tube counterparts, and would absolutely write them off if there was any notice of latency, or a “feel” difference
     
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  13. Guitardave

    Guitardave Supporting Member

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    That is awesome to get such an immediate and direct answer to a question.

    I didn't know we had some Fender mfg. guys with insights around here. That's one of my favorite things about TGP frankly!!

    Given that choice I'd say you guys made the right call. I'll take better response/feel every time over fancier features.

    And I'm really impressed to hear that you guys really took the time to do those subjective evaluations. That insight just bumped my interest level in trying one go way up. A Twin is my favorite gigging platform.

    How close to the actual volume and punch of the Twin do you feel you reached? And curious what style power amp you used to power it? Class A/B, D, etc.

    Thanks!
     
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  14. Gasp100

    Gasp100 Supporting Member

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    "Given that choice I'd say you guys made the right call. I'll take better response/feel every time over fancier features." - I agree 100%. Any digital / SS based solution that presents any perceptible latency to the player (vs. an analog rig) is at a severe disadvantage. If I had to make that call I would have done the same thing.
     
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  15. Gasp100

    Gasp100 Supporting Member

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    The Sweetwater vids sound pretty great.
     
  16. phil_m

    phil_m Supporting Member

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    A digital effects loop only adds latency if it’s used. If people don’t use it, it wouldn’t make any difference. If they do use it, the extra round of conversion would add like 1.5ms of latency (overall latency would depend what’s in the loop, of course).
     
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  17. -Hawk-

    -Hawk- Member

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    You just blew my mind.
     
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  18. metropolis_4

    metropolis_4 Member

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    No offense, but the person who gave this information sounds like he/she was actually there during the R&D phase developing these products. Were you there?
     
  19. phil_m

    phil_m Supporting Member

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    Of course I wasn’t there, but it doesn’t mean I can’t make a common sense observation on the product. It’s not really a secret. Digital amps and processors have had effects loops for many years now. It’s a relatively simple implementation - you bypass the converters when they’re not in use and have them active when using the loop.

    I guess what I’m getting at is they have their reasons for not putting a loop in the amp, and those are fine. They don’t need to justify it to anyone, really. I just don’t see that particular one as making a lot of sense.
     
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  20. jzucker

    jzucker Supporting Member

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    Fender reverb amps never had the reverb in front except for the vibroking. In all those circuits the reverb was after the first 2 gain stages and before the vibrato circuit and phase inverter. I begged for an insertion point in the fender heads to put reverb in the right place. But while I love your work, the spring reverb was not the strong suit of the effects suite. At least not in the ax8 and axe ii. And the spring reverb in those 2 products is not really on par with the best spring reverb pedals and IMO, for a fender reverb amp it's absolutely essential to get the reverb exactly right. Your effects are great though. The kemper effects are the ones that are horrid.
     

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