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Fender Tonemaster DR

JoeB63

Silver Supporting Member
Messages
14,241
One downside about putting the loop post DSP though is that you lose the IR processed DI out.
And that's probably one reason why there's no loop. It would have required an additional A/D/A conversion to put the loop between the modeled amp and the IR -- meaning, more parts and complexity.
 

Fractal Audio

Member
Messages
1,258
What makes a fender a fender is the spring reverb. A million jazz guitar albums and gigs used spring reverb. spring reverb is the sound for '60s jazz guitar. The nu-metal guys don't use spring (or any) reverb either and that's why fractal and kemper don't have a good one.

Our spring reverb is great. You just need to put it before the amp block as this is equivalent to how it would be in the amp. If you put it after the amp block it won't sound the same.
 

phil_m

Have you tried turning it off and on again?
Gold Supporting Member
Messages
13,514
Then you're not the demographic for a fender amp... What makes a fender a fender is the spring reverb. A million jazz guitar albums and gigs used spring reverb. spring reverb is the sound for '60s jazz guitar. The nu-metal guys don't use spring (or any) reverb either and that's why fractal and kemper don't have a good one.

Kemper's spring reverb is very good... Have you actually tried it? Fractal's is fine as well. I actually have a hard time believing Fender's digital models (which is what they're using in these amps) would be any better than either of those companies' takes on it.
 

relix63

Gold Supporting Member
Messages
3,216
Our spring reverb is great. You just need to put it before the amp block as this is equivalent to how it would be in the amp. If you put it after the amp block it won't sound the same.

That's good info that I didn't know. I think I always put it after the amp in patches I set up.
 

MixMinisterMike

Silver Supporting Member
Messages
2,083
Our spring reverb is great. You just need to put it before the amp block as this is equivalent to how it would be in the amp. If you put it after the amp block it won't sound the same.
I think this is one of the biggest mistakes people make with modeling (I spent years missing this point). Onboard reverbs are always before the power amp and cab!
 

jmtaylor22

Member
Messages
1,160
The problem for any company is that you can never win these sort of feature wars. You're always going to have niches who are upset that their pet feature isn't included, and if you did include it you'd have another niche that is upset that it is included.

I don't consider an effects loop an exotic/niche feature. I would venture about 50% or more of modern amps have them. The reason the 65 RI do not because they are intended as a RI. This amp is not a RI and already has additional features. Again to me a loop is an obvious thing to include on an updated classic.
 

Guitardave

Silver Supporting Member
Messages
10,689
I can't believe they left the loop off of it...it makes zero sense.

I doubt Fender is paying attention but I bet there's a big chunk of the modeling crowd (myself included) that would pony up their price to have a great sounding Twin, that I could also bypass the tone stack and use a Marshall or other preamp from a modeling unit. That's what I do with my tube amps and it sounds great.

Fender literally ignored an incredibly obvious application like that (or all the people who like to run time based stuff in an effects loop).
 

jmtaylor22

Member
Messages
1,160
I can't believe they left the loop off of it...it makes zero sense.

I doubt Fender is paying attention but I bet there's a big chunk of the modeling crowd (myself included) that would pony up their price to have a great sounding Twin, that I could also bypass the tone stack and use a Marshall or other preamp from a modeling unit. That's what I do with my tube amps and it sounds great.

Fender literally ignored an incredibly obvious application like that (or all the people who like to run time based stuff in an effects loop).

This is exactly how I would use it as well. I already use a cab + quilter with my helix, in theory the twin could be an even better all in one for this.
 

stilwel

Silver Supporting Member
Messages
2,670
I can't believe they left the loop off of it...it makes zero sense.

I doubt Fender is paying attention but I bet there's a big chunk of the modeling crowd (myself included) that would pony up their price to have a great sounding Twin, that I could also bypass the tone stack and use a Marshall or other preamp from a modeling unit. That's what I do with my tube amps and it sounds great.

Fender literally ignored an incredibly obvious application like that (or all the people who like to run time based stuff in an effects loop).

It wasn't ignored and was definitely discussed at length, but ultimately we decided to not include an effects loop for a couple of reasons:
  1. Countless Twins and DR's have been sold over the last 50+ years without them and yet they remain beloved.
  2. Placing the loop appropriately in the signal path would incur an additional latency hit that we felt was detrimental to the playing "feel" of the amp, which was one of the most important subjective criteria with these models.
Nobody likes time based effects more than this guy...and I'm perfectly happy running everything into the front of the TMDR with it set to edge of breakup sounds.

Believe it or not, we appreciate the spirited debate. We know you guys care as much as we do about gear and great tone!
 

MixMinisterMike

Silver Supporting Member
Messages
2,083
Placing the loop appropriately in the signal path would incur an additional latency hit that we felt was detrimental to the playing "feel" of the amp, which was one of the most important subjective criteria with these models.

This is a great point. Latency certainly is a reason why plenty of guitarists do not connect with digital gear.
 

metropolis_4

Gold Supporting Member
Messages
7,015
And I’m sure there was a lot of consideration of the fact that a lot of the players they’d be trying to win over would be comparing these to their tube counterparts, and would absolutely write them off if there was any notice of latency, or a “feel” difference
 

Guitardave

Silver Supporting Member
Messages
10,689
It wasn't ignored and was definitely discussed at length, but ultimately we decided to not include an effects loop for a couple of reasons:
  1. Countless Twins and DR's have been sold over the last 50+ years without them and yet they remain beloved.
  2. Placing the loop appropriately in the signal path would incur an additional latency hit that we felt was detrimental to the playing "feel" of the amp, which was one of the most important subjective criteria with these models.
Nobody likes time based effects more than this guy...and I'm perfectly happy running everything into the front of the TMDR with it set to edge of breakup sounds.

Believe it or not, we appreciate the spirited debate. We know you guys care as much as we do about gear and great tone!

That is awesome to get such an immediate and direct answer to a question.

I didn't know we had some Fender mfg. guys with insights around here. That's one of my favorite things about TGP frankly!!

Given that choice I'd say you guys made the right call. I'll take better response/feel every time over fancier features.

And I'm really impressed to hear that you guys really took the time to do those subjective evaluations. That insight just bumped my interest level in trying one go way up. A Twin is my favorite gigging platform.

How close to the actual volume and punch of the Twin do you feel you reached? And curious what style power amp you used to power it? Class A/B, D, etc.

Thanks!
 

Gasp100

Gold Supporting Member
Messages
24,976
"Given that choice I'd say you guys made the right call. I'll take better response/feel every time over fancier features." - I agree 100%. Any digital / SS based solution that presents any perceptible latency to the player (vs. an analog rig) is at a severe disadvantage. If I had to make that call I would have done the same thing.
 

phil_m

Have you tried turning it off and on again?
Gold Supporting Member
Messages
13,514
"Given that choice I'd say you guys made the right call. I'll take better response/feel every time over fancier features." - I agree 100%. Any digital / SS based solution that presents any perceptible latency to the player (vs. an analog rig) is at a severe disadvantage. If I had to make that call I would have done the same thing.

A digital effects loop only adds latency if it’s used. If people don’t use it, it wouldn’t make any difference. If they do use it, the extra round of conversion would add like 1.5ms of latency (overall latency would depend what’s in the loop, of course).
 

metropolis_4

Gold Supporting Member
Messages
7,015
A digital effects loop only adds latency if it’s used. If people don’t use it, it wouldn’t make any difference. If they do use it, the extra round of conversion would add like 1.5ms of latency (overall latency would depend what’s in the loop, of course).

No offense, but the person who gave this information sounds like he/she was actually there during the R&D phase developing these products. Were you there?
 

phil_m

Have you tried turning it off and on again?
Gold Supporting Member
Messages
13,514
No offense, but the person who gave this information sounds like he/she was actually there during the R&D phase developing these products. Were you there?

Of course I wasn’t there, but it doesn’t mean I can’t make a common sense observation on the product. It’s not really a secret. Digital amps and processors have had effects loops for many years now. It’s a relatively simple implementation - you bypass the converters when they’re not in use and have them active when using the loop.

I guess what I’m getting at is they have their reasons for not putting a loop in the amp, and those are fine. They don’t need to justify it to anyone, really. I just don’t see that particular one as making a lot of sense.
 

jzucker

Silver Supporting Member
Messages
21,001
Our spring reverb is great. You just need to put it before the amp block as this is equivalent to how it would be in the amp. If you put it after the amp block it won't sound the same.

Fender reverb amps never had the reverb in front except for the vibroking. In all those circuits the reverb was after the first 2 gain stages and before the vibrato circuit and phase inverter. I begged for an insertion point in the fender heads to put reverb in the right place. But while I love your work, the spring reverb was not the strong suit of the effects suite. At least not in the ax8 and axe ii. And the spring reverb in those 2 products is not really on par with the best spring reverb pedals and IMO, for a fender reverb amp it's absolutely essential to get the reverb exactly right. Your effects are great though. The kemper effects are the ones that are horrid.
 




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