Fender: What sits right between Clean Blackface and pushed Tweed?

Discussion in 'Amps and Cabs' started by WBellman, Jul 27, 2019.

  1. WBellman

    WBellman Silver Supporting Member

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    The clean channel of the Atma is advertised as being blackface with the tone control turned left and pushed tweed when right. Not being a Fender guy I have no point of reference but love both sides. I play around with the tone but usually end up right in the middle.

    In the Fender universe which, if any, amp category would that be -assuming the Atma nails BF and tweed?
     
    Last edited: Jul 27, 2019
  2. sunkidd

    sunkidd Silver Supporting Member

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    Maybe a Bassman 6G6-B comes close?
     
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  3. Echoplexi

    Echoplexi Silver Supporting Member

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    Check out the Brownface era amps
     
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  4. gulliver

    gulliver Supporting Member

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    I'm guessing it's a generalization. Turning the tone right probably pushes it for more gain, and at the same time thins it our/makes it brighter.

    Very very very genral, bigger iron, thicker, punchy tones are blackface ... can stay cleaner longer with more headroom. Tweed leans bright and often used for more distorted classic tones.
     
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  5. WBellman

    WBellman Silver Supporting Member

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    Left is more scooped and chimey. Right is definitely more hairy but also more mids and the highs are rounder.
     
  6. jdel77

    jdel77 Member

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    Brownface, clean Vox or Hiwatt
     
  7. HotBluePlates

    HotBluePlates Member

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    You just answered your question: That "blackface/tweed" knob is almost certainly a Mid control or a tone stack lift (a la Allen Amps' Raw control). What you're doing is removing the midrange scoop from the blackface sound, which also increases signal level and ease of distorting later stages.

    The highs may seem rounder because they are not as-boosted above the level of the midrange.

    A "blackface style" Fender amp with a larger-than-typical Mid pot value. Fender amps with no Mid control typically use a 6.8kΩ resistor in that position, where amps with the Mid control have a 10kΩ pot. It's like setting the control on ~7.

    If you now install a 25-100kΩ Mid pot, you acquire the ability to crank the mids up higher than a stock blackface Fender amp, and can go blackface-to-tweed if desired. The value of the pot can be smaller than whatever Bogner used to reflect the fact you don't need to crank it all the way up (if you never go above 60% of rotation, your Mid pot could be 6/10ths of whatever Bogner used).
     
  8. TimH

    TimH Supporting Member

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    Tweed amps are generally not as bright as BF amps. Thicker is also pretty relative - if you are referring to bottom end then yes BF have bigger bottom but Tweeds generally have stronger kids which is what I’d call thicker.
     
  9. WBellman

    WBellman Silver Supporting Member

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  10. gldtp99

    gldtp99 Member

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    HBP is right on the money.

    I've used the Raw (or tone stack ground lift) control on many Fender type builds.

    Or just the original Brownface Fender tone:

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
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  11. jojogun1957

    jojogun1957 Member

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    Carr Rambler
    They have a nice sparkle but get tweed like cranked up little.

    I also like some of the Tophat amps.
    they get a nice vox/fender/marshall tone.
     
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  12. nic'o'caster

    nic'o'caster Member

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    +1 for the Rambler. It's based on a Fender circuit but Steve Carr improved a lot the EQ section and with the mid control, the amp can go from scooped blackface in pentode mode to full mids tweed tone in triode mode. It's not exactly the raw Tweed sound as it is a bit more hi-fi though.
    In the Fender line, the Bassman is the most likely to cover these tones !
    I also have a Mesa TA-30 head that covers a pretty large spectrum of Fender tones with the right speakers...
     
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  13. Gridlock

    Gridlock Member

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    Brown-face amps for sure.
     
  14. Pedro58

    Pedro58 Member

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  15. Major Dude

    Major Dude Member

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    Being a long-term ‘61 6G6 owner/player I agree

    I also gig every week with a 5e3 clone with Rob Robinette’s mid control mod, set halfway it sits between Tweed and Blackface. I like it a lot
     
  16. bluejaybill

    bluejaybill Supporting Member

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    You can also modify the normal channel of a blackface amp to be more of a tweed type sound, and switch between the two.

    Several amp companies do this in addition to the "raw" type controls. Some have both.
     
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  17. tele_jas

    tele_jas Member

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    You're going to laugh at this.... Fender Bassbraker 15!
     
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  18. Tommy_G

    Tommy_G Member

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    What do they do for that mod? -
    Do they move the tonestack to end of chain?
     
  19. patshep

    patshep Supporting Member

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    I'm digging the Carr Sportsman, because it does blackface, but if you crank the mids, it's got tweed tones too... I was going to sell it, because i have a princeton also
     
  20. HotBluePlates

    HotBluePlates Member

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    Typically, it would be simplifying the existing tone controls to a single-knob tone control, which results in 15-20dB more midrange (and a resulting signal level & distortion boost).

    You'd then use an A/B switch to select the channel in use. Sounds like a good plan, but in practice there's a large volume difference between channels because there's not an overall channel-volume to even things up (before going to the shared output section).

    In the blackface Bassman, there are enough tube stages available to build a tweed Bassman/Marshall preamp in one of the channels. That would indeed move the tone stack to the end of that channel, but the gain boost comes from driving that stack with an extra tube stage (cathode follower) that reduces overall signal loss in the stack. Same volume issues apply.
     

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