Financially is digital pretty much always doomed?

JimH16

Member
Messages
52
Just a thought.. as the Tonemaster's seem to generate interest and the katanas. If digital tech is exponentially growing is all digital pretty much doomed on financial resale? If its just code and processors that get superceded. - line6 flagship amps aren't worth much 20 years later.

I'm not knocking anyone using them. I use whatever tools I like that I can afford.
 

Axeplyr

Supporting Member
Messages
1,942
I don’t know how the value of our tube amps is going to evolve in 20/30/50 years... once tubes are no longer made, the value of tubes themselves may skyrocket and tube amps themselves may decline (since they are useless without the tubes). Tough to say. But if they somehow stay highly valued/sought after, they will be the exception and not the rule for anything electronic I guess.
 

Vaibhav Joshi

Member
Messages
2,374
Not talking 50 yrs into the future but..
Digital music tech is evolving very fast; maybe when the evolution slows down, the resale value would be better but at the moment changes are significant.
Even the PC processor moves at a strong pace, maybe unnecessary to some extent.

Budget processors these days are rapidly getting better(er) as better tech is seeping into this segment. Line 6 PODs has been swiftly replaced by Zoom G3/G5 & the likes of Mooer GE.
The first time I read on the Mooer GE200, another manufacturer, Hotone already had a processor out which was purportedly better, what..

At this point, tbh, I wouldn't be interested in a used Line6 or Zoom & would prefer the latest tech since it's moving quite fast & whatever is getting updates is my best bet.
Amp modelling I guess is already there & cab simulation is where these lack.
With a Cab M etc, there is a big improvement it seems.

P.S: I can't say much about Kemper sitting there for a decade without any update & still holding value.
 

Vaibhav Joshi

Member
Messages
2,374
I don’t know how the value of our tube amps is going to evolve in 20/30/50 years... once tubes are no longer made, the value of tubes themselves may skyrocket and tube amps themselves may decline (since they are useless without the tubes). Tough to say. But if they somehow stay highly valued/sought after, they will be the exception and not the rule for anything electronic I guess.
I think 'silent' solutions are going to be much more prevalent because of the way we are changing our lifestyle. Space & passion are shrinking. :/
 

DRS

Member
Messages
11,354
The OP is correct.
iPhone 1 anyone?
Every time V.x comes out, V.x-1 is worth 50% of what it was worth the day before.
My Line 6 HD500 is probably worth $50 now if I could even find a buyer. But I can't be bothered to work out how I would ensure he gets my pass words etc.
I'll give it away the same way I gave away mi TASCAM 4 track cassette "studio."
 

Kostas

Member
Messages
1,315
... line6 flagship amps aren't worth much 20 years later...
Because they're nothing special with todays standards. 40 years old Lexicons, Eventides, TC2290 still hold their value. I'm not sure if we are in the end of the road or we are getting there...the top names of our days, Kemper & Fractal, are really good and if they are build like a Lexicon they will work for a few decades more.

There will be a time when those of us raised with tube amps will be gone and tube amps will be what a turntable is today. Not extinct, hip but not something for the masses. Like I said before, there won't be Kempers & Fractals, the GAS for amps will be gone, people will play with apps from their phone. You'll have all the sounds you need in there.
 

sahhas

Supporting Member
Messages
15,076
i think the point of this can be illustrated from when we had to get a new Furnace when we had our first house in Terre Haute, IN from 1993-96.
In the winter of '95/96, the furnace went out. I called around to a few places, one place said: we'll come out and look. They did, it was dead and old, and they were having year end clearouts of furnaces for new inventory. so we did it.
When they took the old unit out, it was huge by the way, and our house was just a 1200 sq ft bungalow from 1925. The repair guys installing it were pretty funny. They said: you know, they don't make them like this anymore. They estimated it was a furnace from the 1940s, and it was built to last about 50 years, which it did. The old furnace was this big round thing, probably 6 ft in diameter or so, the new furnace they put in looked like a smallish AC unit, it was probably 2 ft high, and probably around 3'x4' or so (maybe a bit smaller). My first comment was: my god, that thing is small (compared to the old one). And the guy said to me: well, this is the size of furnace for your house. It won't last nearly as long as your old one. those built when this one was (the 1940s) were made to last 50 years, this new one will last maybe 20.
that was the reality in 1996, and I think that reality exists to today...
You buy a small tube amp from the 50s, as long as you maintain it, and that you can get the tubes/parts and someone can do it for you, you can have the amp forever.
I don't think that mentality exists with modelers or computers today.... a computer guy told me, if you get 5 yrs out of your computer, you're doing pretty well...
 
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stevieboy

Clouds yell at me
Silver Supporting Member
Messages
37,335
Look at the prices of Katanas, and then consider what a tube amp in that price range will be worth ten years down the road.

A Tone Master Deluxe Reverb is 900 bucks. A DRRI is 1100. You're 200 bucks head right out of the gate.

How bad could it be? Are you buying them to play, or as investments? Buy the ones you like the most.
 

Jabby92

Member
Messages
3,395
I never bought any of my amps of gear as 'investments' but I do feel like the digital stuff really has an early expiry date. New Boss Katana is out already and before you know it a 3rd gen will be out. Some tube amps have this same stigma, such as a a Mesa Mark series amp being on the 5th iteration however they at least go a good 20+ years before releasing a new version.

I think digital stuff could really expand if they would have some way of doing more mods/updates/upgrades.. almost like a desktop computer or something. But the manufacturers probably don't feel a market exists or it'd be too hard to compete.
 

themightyjay

Member
Messages
784
I don’t know, I regularly see the likes of Fractal and Kemper seriously hold their value on the used market.

On the other hand valve amp heads are basically worthless.

That’s from personal experience but have a look at what stuff sells for on eBay and Reverb and tell me it doesn’t often pan out that way.
 

stevieboy

Clouds yell at me
Silver Supporting Member
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37,335
When new versions come along, I’m pretty sure the old ones don’t suddenly stop working. Yeah, they’ll be worth less. And they won’t do some of what the stuff does. That may or not be important enough to make you want whatever it is, of course.

Tone Masters have a USB port. What if any firmware updates will come along, or how much upgrading is even possible, but the possibility for at least something exists.
 
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CptSensible

Member
Messages
814
I guess it depends. At some point, modeling will truly be indistinguishable from the target amp. At that point, what is there left to gain from a new iteration?

The Tone Masters are an interesting development since they’re modeling of just one amp. Ostensibly, however good they are, some future version will be somewhat better, but at some point they’ll be no different than the tube Twin or Deluxe being modeled.

What I wonder is if at some point modeling will develop such that you can reach that stage with amps that perfectly model multiple tube amps rather than a single one. Not even sure that’s feasible in a single box with a single (or multiple) speakers.
 

DRS

Member
Messages
11,354
I don’t know, I regularly see the likes of Fractal and Kemper seriously hold their value on the used market.

On the other hand valve amp heads are basically worthless.

That’s from personal experience but have a look at what stuff sells for on eBay and Reverb and tell me it doesn’t often pan out that way.
I'm not buying it.
Mesa and Marshall tube heads lose value but usually settle around 50% of new. Worthless?
I see the 1st generation Fractal Axe processors selling for around 30-40% of new. But not a lot of them sold around here so there are not that many for sale but they do turn up. There is a Fractal Ultra here for $900 cdn asking. That's $639 USD.
There is a Kemper head for sale at 2/3 new here.
I look at Mesa Boogie used heads - all 2/3 - 3/4 new.
That's my world
 

OPENYOUREYES

Member
Messages
1,651
Just a thought.. as the Tonemaster's seem to generate interest and the katanas. If digital tech is exponentially growing is all digital pretty much doomed on financial resale? If its just code and processors that get superceded. - line6 flagship amps aren't worth much 20 years later.

I'm not knocking anyone using them. I use whatever tools I like that I can afford.
yes..of course. Resale on digital is usually poor.Sure there are examples of fractals and helix at good resale but thats rare in the big picture. As i said before i think these companies are getting bolder in prices and a few are paying it(like home prices in cali or anywhere for that matter) but most people pass and feel the price is crazy. This board is full of alot of wealthy players and players who can affors 1 of every modeler and have a bunch of botique amps ect.Thats great but its not a real slice of musicians who struggle.
 

wonkyfinger

Member
Messages
6
Just a thought.. as the Tonemaster's seem to generate interest and the katanas. If digital tech is exponentially growing is all digital pretty much doomed on financial resale? If its just code and processors that get superceded. - line6 flagship amps aren't worth much 20 years later.

I'm not knocking anyone using them. I use whatever tools I like that I can afford.
I haven't been paying attention, but I didn't even expect the Tonemasters to generate interest at all. I remember the NAMM video popped up on my Youtube feed a few months back, and I moved on disinterestedly, thinking that nobody in his right mind would pay that kind of money for a digital amp made in China. Guess I was wrong, are people psyched for these?
 

OPENYOUREYES

Member
Messages
1,651
I never bought any of my amps of gear as 'investments' but I do feel like the digital stuff really has an early expiry date. New Boss Katana is out already and before you know it a 3rd gen will be out. Some tube amps have this same stigma, such as a a Mesa Mark series amp being on the 5th iteration however they at least go a good 20+ years before releasing a new version.

I think digital stuff could really expand if they would have some way of doing more mods/updates/upgrades.. almost like a desktop computer or something. But the manufacturers probably don't feel a market exists or it'd be too hard to compete.
I agree on this like they do on helix. Make a helix/modeler in an amp(like the vetta 2hd style or id260(silverline)) that can be updated down the road or even have boards inside replaced to update hardware.
 

OPENYOUREYES

Member
Messages
1,651
I haven't been paying attention, but I didn't even expect the Tonemasters to generate interest at all. I remember the NAMM video popped up on my Youtube feed a few months back, and I moved on disinterestedly, thinking that nobody in his right mind would pay that kind of money for a digital amp made in China. Guess I was wrong, are people psyched for these?
Again this board isnt they average musician out there.
 




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