Fractal Audio Axe-FX - this thing is a Monster

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Scott Peterson

TGP Co-Founder and Administrator
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Finally.

The Axe-FX is for real. All of it. It's the delivery of the promise I've wanted to believe, and I've tried to create over the years. It's a monster rig in a box. No corners cut, nothing to workaround. No excuses. No apologies. No qualifiers. It is Reality V.2.

Skip the 'modeling' thing. Skip the 'emulation' thing. Skip the tubes vs. everything else. It's simply game over. There is now a very real and viable alternative to tube amps. Better or worse? That's up to you. The point is that there is now a VERY real tone rig out there that really does it all.

First, some context. I've been playing guitar since 1981 or so. Been in bands pretty much since 1982. Done mostly rock, then alternative rock, roots rock, funk, blues, country, soul, R&B, and alt-country. I was a co-writer, co-producer, and guitarist in a regionally successful alt-rock band in the mid-90's in the Midwest. I've wrote, recorded and released a solo instrumental CD that I put out in 2001. I've played covers and originals on national stages at outdoor festivals to thousands and from little corners on the floor in a bar where 1 drunk was ignoring us. Ego isn't my trip, I am not a flash player and more a dedicated player in it for love of playing guitar than a wanna-be, never-was, or has-been. Or maybe I am all three of those too. :D

In the past few years, from my mid-30's on, I've tried to expand my musical horizons and play other genre's. I've been in a funk covers band, backed singers doing R&B, Motown, Soul, Pop, Rock, alt-country. Done duo's acoustically with just a singer besides myself. Playing solo guitar for wedding ceremonies.

I have done a lot of different rigs over the years; been a gear-hound since the beginning. I've gone from solid state amps in my early days to rack systems in the late 80's - early 90's. Then got into tube amps; Rivera Rake, Knucklehead,TBR-1SL, TBR-2SL, K55-12; Germino Club 40, Lead 55; Bogner Shiva, Ecstasy Classic; Dr. Z Rx; Guytron GT-100; Matchless Clubman, DC-30; GT Solo 45; THD Flexi; VHT Pittbull 45, Deliverance, 50/ST; GDS/Guytron 18watt modded hand-wired clone; Koch Multitone; Hughes & Kettner Switchblade; Atomic Reactor 112-50, 112-18; Fender Twin; plus extensive experience with various Marshalls, Vox's and other vintage Fender's. I've done guitar-cable-amp rigs, guitar-pedals-amp rigs, guitar-rack rigs. Boutique to pro-sumer. Channel switchers to non-MV single channel amps. Pedals into clean amps; no pedals into channel switchers. I'm a tweaker , I get inside of tube amps, I change preamp tubes and power tubes. I have a great stash of NOS tubes, both power and preamp tubes. I set my own bias on my amps. I don't mod them, but have had them modded when necessary.

And lots of modeling rigs. Owned a ton of Line 6 and Vox; extensive experience with Roland, Korg and Digitech. Messed with the first Gen Fender modeling amps a band member owned. I've used them direct, through full range solutions, and through guitar amps and then the modeling-centric Atomic Reactor tube amps. I have a very well traveled thread onTGP about making modeling work for me; using buffers, passive resistors, pedals, etc. to work around well-known and now cliche modeling issues such as: 'No feel' 'thin' 'digital' 'fizzy' 'no cut' 'grainy' etc etc.. I've created hybrid tube amp/modeling setups and ran with them for periods. The results have ranged from bad to good. It has never in any way, shape or form on a purely tonal player's level approached a guitar-cord-good tube amp.

The rub for me has always been to somehow create a rig that does it all. That's everyone's quest. The prefect rig. I started a thread in the Amps section of TGP that turned into a massive thing - "Post Your Rig"; even a few pages of it shows the absolute range of what guys use. Everyone's taste and needs are so different. It's daunting for a company to try to create a product that does 'the perfect rig' for everyone. And this Fractal Audio Axe-FX won't be the siren call for everyone; but I have to say, it just might be there for me.

A little back story on how I found out about this and took a chance getting one. I heard the rumors that some guy was developing the ultimate rig using only the finest components, starting from scratch doing his own modeling processes and approaching the whole 'modeling' thing from his own paradigm. He didn't ape existing methods, had the background and capability to shape the development of the thing and then - because he is a guitarist (and a pretty good one that plays out) - make it actually make sense to work with. You can run it direct in, you can run it into a power amp and cabs, you can run it as an effects only processor. This is no compromise, Eventide quality and level effects, coupled with a monster preamp that redefines the term 'modeling'; offering you tremendous range of tones and nailing the feel and response of a tube amp; that also can be used live into a power amp and cab, direct toFOH or into a recording rig (or all at the same time). Cliff Chase is the guy; he worked on top secret sonar stuff for the Navy as an electrical engineer. This guy has the vision, the brains and the common sense needed to pull this off, make it work and deliver the goods. A few things caught my interest early on - he didn't follow the Line 6 paradigm of trying to exactly ape a given amp. Cliff instead offers you more of everything to let you decide how your tone should sound. For a few examples, look at how he created non-interactive tone controls. He offers you preamp and power amp separately. In the power amp section alone, you have control over Presence, Hi-cut, Depth (output impedance), Deep (modifies the negative feedback to the power section to enhance the low-frequency response), Dampening (amount of negative feedback), Sag (affects power supply impedance and therefore plate voltages on the power tubes),Lowcut frequency, Tone Frequency (the center frequency of the tone controls), Transformer Low Frequency, Transformer High Frequency, lets you set the tone stack in the preamp. And more. That's simply the power section. That caught my attention big time. You can also simply turn off the power amp section and use a real tube power amp into a real cab.

I love wah. He doesn't simply ape a given wah for instance; you get the tools to create your own. I have a beloved Fulltone Clyde. I've owned it since 1997. It is serial number 44; and has been serviced twice by Mike Fuller because I simply wore it out. Nothing has ever touched it for what it does; but it isn't perfect for all situations. On clean and crunch stuff - it's the bomb. Under massive gain, it's not so good. I've aped it with the Axe-FX and then created other wah's for higher gain patches where they needed it. And the Axe-Fx wah sounds, reacts and feels exactly like a freaking wah. Recorded, live, whatever. You can set it up as a lowpass, bandpass or peaking filter. You set the frequency range max and minimum. You set the Q of the filter and then the Q tracking of the filter. Then you can adjust the frequency of the filter relative to the minimum and maximum of the frequencies. It's crazy.

So those two things - among others - set me thinking about it. On a whim I heard a few things on TGP about it and did some Googling; and found out the thing is now real and out there. I got on the list early in April 2007, did a gear sell-off to pop for it and here I am.

My finances have been rocked in the past few years; I can not carry massive expensive rigs, nor justify the range of amps I would need to truly keep myself happy with the different situations I play in. In the funk covers band, the GT Solo 45 and a massive pedalboard was divine. For rock covers, theBogner Shiva, Rivera Rake or VHT 50/ST with a few pedals was the bomb. For backing Alyssa Simmons (pop/rock/soul/Motown), the Germino Club 40 and a massive pedalboard was *it*. For doing my alt-country projects, the Matchless, THD Flexi or Germino Club 40 were perfect with a few pedals. Can't do all that anymore. I have gigged with the Roland Cube 60, I have gigged with the Line 6 PODXT Live and Atomic Reactor 112-50. It can work, but will never curl your toes. If given a choice, I am going to go with the tube amps and I know what I like.

So the promise and expectations of the Axe-FX is that it could do everything I would want with simply a power amp, cab and controller/expression pedal for live work. Have to go direct? No problem. Direct *and* into a stage rig (power amp/cab) at the same time? No problem. Recording direct in my home studio? No problem. Effects I like and use (compressor, wah, phaser, flanger, chorus, rotary, delay, reverb?) No problem. Ability to go beyond what I could do in the past - formant filter (like a talk-box) but would want for a tune or two if called for? No problem. He created a 'grid' where you basically can lay out your entire rig any way you want; parallel, serial, side-chain, in virtually any order you want. You can come 'outside the box' and use the effects loop anywhere you want in a variety of ways; patching otherpreamps or effects or using it like I do to get signal to the external power amp and cab before the amp sims inside that are plugged directly to the FOH . It has two of almost everything it does (on the Standard model) available for you to do. You could create one preset with two side-by-side rigs and record them in stereo for instance. The patching and mixing and panning capabilities still boggle my brain. Noise gate, compressor, filter, graphicEQ, Parametric EQ, Chorus, Flanger, Phaser, Rotary, Wah, Formant Filter, Pan/Tremelo , delay, multi-delay, reverb, amp (preamp and power amp), cabinets, drive (OD Pedals), Pitch shifter, effects loop, mixer and feedback send/return. It's got controllers galore: tempo,LFO, ADSR , sequencer, envelope, pitch and you can use a good old fashioned midi controller with expression pedals and attach them to most anything you would want to attach them too. Whew.

He's used the finest components from the military level insanely powerful processor to the A/D and D/A converters, he's added no junk, cut no corners and used his own proprietary algorithms. Just simply his amp algorithms (one of them alone) would not run on PODXT, Vetta or the H&K Zenterra. They don't have the processing power to do it right.

It's a helluva lot to promise from a small start up company; and pretty heady stuff if it lives up to the billing. The 30 day trial was the final thing that tipped me towards trying it out. Sometimes you just gotta say, what the f*** and go for it.

****continued below****
 

Scott Peterson

TGP Co-Founder and Administrator
Staff member
Messages
37,794
****Continued from above****

So here we are. In the past few months I've been running a old school Rocktron Voodu Valve preamp into a Bruce Egnater designed Randall RT2/50 power amp. I took the Rocktron in on a trade for some pedals and on a lark tried it out. It completely blew away, IMHO, the entire POD XT based rig I had spent years working on. Even cut direct with the speakers sims on the VV simply was superior in every way you can fathom. It has it's flavor and isn't 50+ amps in a box. It does from clean to scream and all points in between. The effects are pretty good. You give up a tuner and it's limited in the way you have to set it up to run effects (only one at a time plus delay and reverb); but the root of it all is tone. I found a very used but very functional used Randall RT/2 power amp sitting for a year at the local GC; turned on everyday for that year and turned all the way up (with mismatched and unbiased tubes it turns out); yet it works and once setup correctly it kills. It's midi switchable; you get your choice of most any two sets of power tubes you like. I have Phillips NOS 5751A (6L6 like) and GT 6CA7's (EL34's) on the other side. You set the bias externally; it's just insanely good sounding for the money. The ability to run whatever tubes you like for whatever preamp setting you like is fantastic.

I dropped the Axe-FX in the rig; and checked out the presets. I am not, nor have I ever been, a 'use the presets' guy. I am listening for things I use later when I build my own. I approach presets like they are rigs; in processors like the Axe-FX, you are literally building the entire pedal-amp rig. Every element, just like 'real life'. The pedals, the settings, the order. I stuck on a preset that wasEVH's "Brown Sound" and once I got inside that one and got to tweaking it to my ear, that became the sound. That's the sound of a distorted guitar that I've damn well chased from the time I started playing. I've come close - many times - but here it was. Stripped of all the effects except slight reverb (3% wet slight) and nothing else, I started building presets for what I'd need right away. I would be cutting a commercial jingle and was about to get rehearsals underway for a new classic rock/modern rock/alt-country cover/originals project/band that I am starting up. Dropped in my tube powered rig into my cabs (Tone Tools Fat Cat 212 with Guytron 55 speakers) I know what I like, what I want and I know what I hear. So off I went.

It's all there. The body, the punch, the push. The top end, the air, the swirl. That magic thing you get in a room when you make tubes work. The gliss, the shimmer, the gooey, crunchy crunch. The magic 'it' you know when you feel and hear it. It was right. No settings to twiddle, nothing to adjust outside of the tone controls. Like an amp. A really good amp. A bunch of hella good amps. I A/B'd with the Rocktron VV, and the VV still has a good sound but it isn't like an amp. It's just a good sound. The Axe-FX is everything you want from an amp. (And a rig to boot).

Well, I had to try out some things before I got any further. The guitar's volume pot works right. I tried the Radial Dragster, so indispensable to me with the Line 6 stuff - added nothing. Dropped my go-to buffered pedal, my Xotic RC-Boost. You could hear the buffer change the signal, but it didn't add or make anything 'better'; it merely was the buffer I was hearing. That's amazing. No modeler, preamp, whatever, ever did that. Only the better amps I've had did. Built up a clean tone I liked; I tried some pedals into it; they were just like plugging into an amp. That's amazing. I could spend a few paragraphs on that alone. But I won't. It just 'is'. Unlike other processors, modelers or amps to some extent, it sounds very good very simply. You don't *need* to tweak to sound good. But if you do, you are utterly rewarded.

Over the next day this past weekend, I built up 10 presets that will cover me for most of my needs for now. When I do cover tunes, I am not an 'exactly' like the recorded-tone chaser. Tone-wise, I am more of a 'get the spirit and attitude' right and add my own flavor to it. I like Fender-like cleans, Tweed pushed dirty OD tones, Matchless/Vox single coil edgy tones, JCM 800 rhythm sounds (basically a more gained Plexi sort of tone); Modded pushed Marshalls, Bogner, Soldano and Recto type of heavier tones. I am not a shredder, not a Dumble/Two Rock/Fuchs sort of guy. I like what I like and do what I do. I am using my Rocktron Midi-Mate to control it, but am already feeling very constricted by only having 5 CC buttons; I could build virtual pedal boards with everything I would ever need for a given preset and never need more than a few total presets per gig if I could turn the effects on/off within the preset like a big pedalboard.

Building raw presets, before any effects or such, simply the amp (and cabs for direct stuff) was akin to sitting with an amp designer/builder/mod maestro while you poked for more or less of this or that. You are tweaking to simply get better; not working around things. That's important. That's were the whole modeling thing, to this point, has always been a problem. You simply HAD to tweak to work around this or that to use the range of tones that were supposed to be in it. This cab sounds awful, that gain is fizzy, gained chords sound good, but single note lines sound thin, it goes on forever. There is none of that here. It simply 'is'. I took the Matchless 'model' and created a hybrid DC-30/Clubman type of sound that I had dreamed of.. but could not get in real life or 'virtual' life to this point. I'll say this and mean it, it's better than 'real'. Because it is a tone I wanted, always wanted, but never found before. Yet here it is. Boom.

I am not an effects maven. I know what I want, but don't get all the parameters and settings and such to get them. I don't study choruses for instance. I can plug in a chorus pedal and tweak the settings till I find what I want and then I am fine. That's a shortcoming - for me - with the Axe-FX in a way. I have to mess with settings to get the sounds I want. Pretty much by trial and error with the effects. I get delays and reverbs from mixing digitally over the years; not a problem. But a chorus with all these parameters and settings takes a lot of trial and error. But that's also a strength because I am into the tweaking on the amps and find the whole process of seeing what happens when you take a sound you like and try different flavors of it. It's fascinating. Most of the effects sound pretty good by just turning them on. You need to go into them and mess and it doesn't take hours; but with things complicated like some modulated stuff, it can be a bit of a trip. It is what it is.

Now where does this leave me? I've cut a commercial jingle with it and had a rehearsal with it in a full band setting. The results are deeply satisfying. The tone, feel and capabilities are there. The thing delivers. In a room, with my power amp and cab it sounds insanely rich, reacts, feels, and just cuts with power, punches hard when pushed and sounds good even dialed down volume wise. There's no rush to tweak this or that; turn this up or down. I can use my guitar's volume to lower the gain and my attack to get the range of sounds I am used to with a good amp. I could literally cover a gig with most any of one preset with a solo boost (that I can dial in inside the box via any number of methods, but I like a graphicEQ). For the commercial jingle I cut direct through the digital out, here's the producer's reaction to it: "That box you tracked with is the first "not-an-actual-amp" that I have heard that can sit in a mix with "real" amps and bass. I've listened to the tracks and the mix over and over. In fact, I went back and forth between my Roccaforte track and your Marshall track, and they both sounded equally real to my ear. So basically, if you told me you'd recorded a Marshall and a Soldano, I'd have believed you (I'd also have thought you did a great job miking the amps!). I'm predicting that thing will become a studio staple as soon as the word gets out."

This thing is real. It isn't another modeler, or another processor. It isn't an amp sim. It just 'is'. I can't remove myself from how utterly delicious it is to simply crank it up and play it and feel it and listen to it; the exact thing I've done all my life with an amp that I truly got excited about: I simply enjoyed just listening to. I've never, ever, just 'listened to and enjoyed' a modeler before. I don't listen to the Axe-FX and hear 'a little more of this, a little less of that'. I just hear 'it'. It has that thing, that feel, that organic element you can only get from an amp. Plugged in direct, it sounds like an ampmic'd out in the room and you are in the control room listening to it. Same *exact* experience. It's a disconnect, because it sounds 'in the other room' but that's how it works in real life too when you mic up a speaker cab. That fake plastic toy-tone that other 'sims' and modelers give you isn't there. It's just the tone.

So longtime friend/bassist asked me if I was going to try to set the world on fire and champion this box and get everyone to try it, hear it, want it, buy it. I honestly replied that I don't want anyone else to buy it. I want it all for me. I don't care if everyone one in the world goes out and buys one, they won't sound like me. I sound like me. I don't sound like you, even through your rig. And vice-versa. In the modeling world, everyone wants your presets. Even if you took hours and hours to build them, they just want them. Gimme. I get that; I've learned a lot from studying other folks' presets on other devices and learning from them. But I don't use them; I build my own. I'll put up some of my presets on the Axe-FX exchange site; but not all of them. The key is that I don't care if anyone else buys this, agrees with me or wants this. But I do feel obligated to hip folks to the fact that this thing is out there, it exists and for a lot of guys, this thing is THE answer. Anyone that wants more from their rig. Tube, solid state, digital, analog, whatever. This transcends all that. It's a mind blowing rig. There is no longer any stigma you can attach to a word or a way to get your tones; I have this and I've used it and I hear it. It's just semantics now; use what works for you. But if you are looking for what this does, it gives up the goods. It's real. It delivers on the hype, the promises and doesn't need excuses or apologies.

I didn't get into the effects; especially the delays or reverbs here. Suffice to say, they are not the same as, but on the same level as the absolute best-of-the-best out there. On any platform. I haven't even tried the pitch shifter and many of the controllers; they don't appeal to me and I don't use them. I haven't used this long enough to give a reliability report; but the fact that the owner/developer is active online, reachable and fixes bugs/issues ASAP in real time (folks found an issue, he had a new firmware update the next day uploaded) is remarkable. He's beat his for 3 years, left it in a trailer, in heat, and cold and it's never hiccuped. You don't need a voltage regulator with this (the Line 6 stuff did, under brownouts, it'd shut off) and I just use a plain old PL-8 conditioner with it. There is a software editor in beta that is as nice as anything Line 6 (which does that end of it very well) ever put out.

Is it for everyone? Yes and no. Some guys are happy with what they have. Some guys don't like anything not tubes, or even remotely digital. This transcends that, but they won't care. Some guys are petrified of menus and midi and computers. It's cool. But for guys/gals looking for the real and I mean first REAL box that does it all, the time is now. It's happened. It's here. It is.

Finally.

Clips to come once I can come up for air.
 

Pa'ani

Silver Supporting Member
Messages
11,488
Hi Scott,
Thanks for sharing the in depth and very informative report
on the Fractal Audio AXE-FX.
Can't wait to hear some clips!
 

Lucidology

Silver Supporting Member
Messages
27,765
WOW... wonderful review Scott..
Very informative... can't thank you enough ..
 

solo-act

Member
Messages
989
Ha ha ha I saw this one coming from Scott as soon as I spent a few days with mine back in early June. Had a feeling he'd put up a massive review!

I've had mine a month and 4 days I concur with Scott's review--wait--I haven't read it all yet :) I might get to doing a review myself...........if I could just turn the damn thing off and quit playing through it. Ok, ok -- I can at least change my sig. There....hey! where'd all my gear go?
 

Hacksaw

Time Warped
Messages
10,208
Thanks for taking the time for the review, Scott. I am looking forward to this unit. Mainly for the effects. but its great to hear the difference from the Rocktron VV. as I had the original model and know exaclty what the difference in reference is.

Since ya wont sell me yours, I'll just have to wait to get mine. :D
 

MikeyG

Silver Supporting Member
Messages
12,314
Wow, when you review, Scott, you review!!!!!

All very well said.

All my big modeling concerns have been addressed with this unit.

I think I'll go play now!
 

daddyo

Guest
Messages
11,797
Scott, do I have this right -you are running the Axe-FX into a Randall RT/2 power amp and then into a Tone Tools Fat Cat 212 with Guytron 55 speakers?
 

teleamp

Senior Member
Messages
3,478
Scott, could tell us a little more:D. Just kidding, great review.

IF the Fractal Audio AXE-FX is all you say it is, it sounds like a great tool. I look forward to hearing one.

MikeY
 
M

Member 1762

Scott, I keep track of your posts because ultimately I am looking to find a rig like what you are describing here. I'd like to check this thing out, do you have a link for it?
 

teleamp

Senior Member
Messages
3,478
Scott, I keep track of your posts because ultimately I am looking to find a rig like what you are describing here. I'd like to check this thing out, do you have a link for it?


Here you go: http://www.fractalaudio.com/

The pricing is comparable to TC Electronics stuff. I do have a Goodsell S17 RT 2X10 that I could sell to get me one.

I knew there had to be a good alternative to keeping an arsenal of amps and pedals.

MikeY


MikeY
 

NuSkoolTone

Member
Messages
1,328
Scott,

How does this fare direct into a PA/Monitor? I am often a keyboard player/2nd guitar player in bands, but can't bring myself to use a POD (Hate the sound!).

So I end up lugging TWO rigs. Would love to just throw a 10 lbs rack in my keyboard rack/case and throw it through the mixer! PLUS I'd have only ONE source to give the sound guy!

So as a keyboard player I'm not afraid of Tweaking. I also love the idea of versatility and own an RM4/RT2-50 setup but have never been convinced of it's "Do it all" mantra, even though the tones are pretty good. So far my (boogie) mark IV is killing it though. Either rig is HEAVY!

BTW, did you get the ultra or the standard? What's the real difference between the two?
 

riffy

Member
Messages
1,965
Scott,
I haven't posted here in a while and wouldn't have seen this post if a friend hadn't hipped me to it... I have to be honest here as well, I have had an Axe-FX in the house for about 8 months now. I find it to be all you said and then some.

I have owned all kinds of amps from Soldanos to Cornfords, Mesa, and the elusive MarkIIC+. I have to be brutally honest and I know many here and elsewhere will disbelieve, the Axe-FX is the best piece of kit I have EVER
owned. I would take it over any amp at any cost that I have personally tried. I know there will be naysayers, there always are, but for me, this
unit is simply as you say, "it".

I am now playing in a fusion band of rotating members, one evening we will have a trumpet player sitting in with us, the next a sax player and a keyboardist. The next a smokey voiced singer. This thing going direct sometimes cuts through just like any rig I have ever used and I can't tell
it isn't my tube amps blazing away.

I hate to liken this to a tube amp, but if you want that sound, it is here.
I LOVE the power section controls. Just using them and one preamp setting
I can yank so many tones out it isn't even funny. I really dig using my volume and tone controls on the guitar, they work just LIKE THEY SHOULD with the Axe-FX.

I can't say enough about what Cliff has done with this unit. The customer service he gives is unreal. He actually takes what people want and adds it to the Axe-FX for download. He listens and he is a player. That my friends makes all the difference in the world.

I actually hope he sells a BOATLOAD of these things. I don't have to worry about anyone copping my presets either, they won't sound the same using them. Just like on a "real" amp players sound different, they will with the
Axe-FX too.

Gary
 

mctallica1

Member
Messages
69
Hot damn.

I have been chasing my tail for what you describe above for years.

Have a transaction pending on one of the original models (owner is on the list fot the Ultra and as soon as he gets it, the Axe FX is all mine...woohoo!!!!!!!).

Excellent, insightful review.

I can not wait to play through this thing and my VHT 2/50/2 poweramp:cool:
 

Lution

Member
Messages
9,452
I'd love to hear clips from Scott. I checked Fractal's website out a few months ago when I was on the fence and thinking of going Vetta or XTC. Decided to go XTC and am glad I went that way.

The audio clips on the site, at the time I checked, were pretty washed over with effects so i couldn't really hear it's pure tone. Scott's clips I'm sure will be pretty much the pure stuff that this rig can do.

Looking forward to hearing it.

Robbie
 
M

Member 1762

So whats the prefered live setup for this thing? Into a tube amp? Digital power amp? Guitar cab? PA cab?
 

riffy

Member
Messages
1,965
So whats the prefered live setup for this thing? Into a tube amp? Digital power amp? Guitar cab? PA cab?


I have run it both direct to PA and into a tube power amp and cab.
Either way works for me. Direct is actually better for the band mix,
as I don't have the cab behind me blazing, cluttering up the onstage
sound. I like my own cab as a monitor though.
 
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