Fractal Audio's New FM3

Discussion in 'Digital & Modeling Gear' started by LqdSndDist, Apr 23, 2019.

  1. yeky83

    yeky83 Member

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    I understand how it can be a wrinkle. There's always the Axe-Fx III but that's a different price range and form factor.

    Practically speaking, I think for the TS type of case, you can use some EQ to emulate the lower impedance. And for the fuzz case, no fuzz nut really seems to love any fuzzes in any digital effects boxes anyway, whether it be in the HX, Fractal, etc. It seems to me people who really want authentic fuzzes will use fuzz pedals, variable impedance or not.
     
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  2. Mark Al

    Mark Al Member

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    Thanks, I'll give the EQ hack a try, though I am little skeptical :)

    I am by no means a fuzz nut, and I do use the HX on-board Fuzz model from time to time, which worked pretty well so far. Again, Fuzz is just one example, there are many other drive/modulation pedals, whose optimal/designed input Z is much lower than 1M, it'd be a little tricky to get those sounds real/right with 1M Z all the time. Furthermore, previously an "Auto" setting basically allows users not to worry about it, now that might become a haunting concern/reason why things do not sound right sometimes....

    Such a pity that FM3 decided to skip it.
     
    Last edited: May 6, 2019
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  3. yeky83

    yeky83 Member

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    Multiple A/D/A would add to the noise level if not anything else. As I remember, Eventide pedals (which are great) are a bit on the noisey side. But H9's and such usually come after the OD pedals, so it's usually not a big deal.

    If you want to put an FM3 in the loop of a HX to use FM3's drives, it would mean more noise than optimal going into those FM3 drives. I personally wouldn't.
     
  4. ejecta

    ejecta Supporting Member

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    Weird I don’t notice my Strymons, Meris, H9s etc adding noise at all. The H9s and Meris pedals are in the loop of the amp but I do have Strymons and such in front. My real pedals aren’t any more noisy than any rig I’ve built all in the Helix, AX8, or Atomic. I just tried my Atomic FB in the loop of the Helix since this thread got me thinking of how I might use the FM3 with the Helix or HX and didn’t notice any added noise either.
     
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  5. yeky83

    yeky83 Member

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    Talking about the Strymon and Meris delay pedals, yeah? They have analog dry through I think. The H9 doesn't have analog dry, and I noticed it was particularly noisier than other stuff I'd used, guessing cus of the A/D/A not being so great. And again, in the loop of the amp or after the drive pedals, it doesn't matter much anyway cus stuff before in the signal chain already adds significant gain.

    If you don't notice any added noise with modelers in the loop of modelers, great! Probably not a big deal.
     
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  6. Yek

    Yek Member

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    It's not one-way traffic. The peculiar way in which many fuzz boxes operate, depends on the interaction between guitar signal and fuzz, going BOTH ways. The electronics of the modeler stand in the way of true reproduction of that behavior, even with variable impedance.
     
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  7. veritechc

    veritechc Member

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    the block library on the Axe FX III is brilliant. I would love to see this as standard for all modelers!!!
     
  8. Watt McCo

    Watt McCo Member

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    That's true of everything that's modeled in these products. After the input stage, however, the interaction WITH THE GUITAR is done, from my understanding, so everything else should be model-able. The output impedance is also funky which makes a fuzz interact oddly with things downstream of it...but that can be modeled.

    The input impedance can't be modeled, because it's "interaction" is dependant on the guitar being used and where the knobs and selector swicth of that guitar are located.

    EDIT TO ADD: as noted above, the input impedance of a fuzz face is dependent to a small degree on where the "fuzz" knob is placed and I can't imagine any digital device being able to mimic that behavior, but that's a very, very subtle difference compared to just dropping input impedance from 1 Meg to 10 k which goes a loooooong way to making the Helix sound pretty close to an actual fuzz face.
     
    Last edited: May 7, 2019
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  9. Pat6969

    Pat6969 Supporting Member

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    Fuzz....Ewwww!
     
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  10. Jay Mitchell

    Jay Mitchell Member

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    This is not correct. The characteristics of the signal from a source (guitar) while driving a load (fuzz) depend on three parameters: the signal itself (aka "open circuit voltage"), the frequency-dependent source impedance, and the frequency-dependent load impedance. The impedances of the source and load are in series and form a frequency-dependent voltage divider. With a modeler, two of the three above elements are always present. If the modeler's frequency-dependent input impedance matches that of the target fuzz, the third element is present as well.

    Having said that, I'll point out that, given the variety of stompboxes out there, the odds of a modeler producing a perfect match to the input impedance of any given one - even with a variable input impedance "feature" - are poor. Additionally, attempts to provide such a feature often create problems of their own. I much prefer a modeler to have a constant input impedance that is a good match for a typical tube amp.

    If you're obsessed with getting a perfect match to your favorite stompbox, and the input impedance of the box looks a lot different than the typical input impedance of a tube amp, you're probably better off just using the physical box.
     
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  11. nicolasrivera

    nicolasrivera Gold Supporting Member

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    The FM3 is aimed for you to plug your guitar and used the provided drive/fuzz pedals inside. Want a real fuzz to sound right? don't use ANY digital modeler, go strait in to your amp.
     
  12. gtr37

    gtr37 Member

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    I guess it the nature of the internet but i find it funny to see so many complaints on a unit not released yet or all these dealbreaker features many didnt know they
    Needed.

    My guess is that if Cliff came here 2 months ago and said new product in works

    Full quality Ax3 amp models
    Usb recording
    Headphones
    10 blocks for FX
    Small compact like a stomp
    $999

    People would have freaked out and said best thing ever

    Now we are discussing all the things it doesnt have for 999 compared to a 2300 unit
     
  13. ElliotG

    ElliotG Member

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    Can you describe this "both ways"? If I think about a fuzz face for example, I can see how the low input impedance loads the pickups, but I can't think of any other impacts on input side of the pickup+FF.
     
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  14. Watt McCo

    Watt McCo Member

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    Well, there's a difference between a vague product announcement and a wait list with product currently scheduled to start shipping soon enough for people to actually need to start finding $999.

    Also, your hypothetical announcement wouldn't have actually been accurate:

    (1) it's over twice the size of Stomp. Stomp is smaller than a Strymon Mobius; FM3 is bigger than a standard sheet of paper. It's closer in size to an Ax-8 than it is to a Stomp.

    (2) it doesn't have "full quality Axe 3 amp models".

    (3) it only has 3 switches.

    And those are the minor things people are nitpicking about.

    Moreover, as for me, any critique I'm aiming at the FM3 isn't really a critique, it's just a "should I just suck it up and save a bit more for a III?" analysis.
     
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  15. hippietim

    hippietim Member

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    This isn't accurate. Here's what Cliff wrote:

    So the Axe 3 quality is there, just not a few of the features that don't exist on the real amps either.
     
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  16. Billy_B

    Billy_B Silver Supporting Member

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    The hand wringing over impedance has given way to the hand wringing over the clarification of what someone typed.
     
  17. Watt McCo

    Watt McCo Member

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    Meh..."misleading". Its slightly different...whether I read that in a press release two months ago or in this thread when it became apparent that "same quality" does not mean "same"...I'd have some questions, minor concerns.

    EDIT TO ADD: And if you disagree with "misleading", it is at the very least "poor choice of phrasing if the goal was to avoid future hand wringing over small details".
     
    Last edited: May 7, 2019
  18. hippietim

    hippietim Member

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    You asserted that the FM3 amp modeling is diminished quality and Cliff previously stated it is not and that the only difference is that the FM3 models have fewer features. I'm not sure how that is misleading, poorly phrased, or difficult to understand in any way.
     
  19. Watt McCo

    Watt McCo Member

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    Because I expect a "full quality" model of a Princeton Reverb to include all the features of that amp that the "full quality" amp modeling of the Axe Fx III has, including bias tremolo.
     
  20. hippietim

    hippietim Member

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    Less features does not mean lower quality.
     
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