Fractal Audio's New FM3

Discussion in 'Digital & Modeling Gear' started by LqdSndDist, Apr 23, 2019.

  1. cliffc8488

    cliffc8488 Member

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    We removed all the superfluous stuff (bias tremolo, dynamic presence/depth, etc.) in order to get the core amp modeling to run on the slower processor.
     
  2. hippietim

    hippietim Member

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    The initial tap, tap, tap, was just creating a signal chain from In1 to Out1. Other devices have these pre-wired but you can't change that. There's advantages to both approaches - the Fractal approach allows for more flexible routing on the grid vs. the simplicity of fixed connections. Moving around the grid is no more or less than any other product. As for the rest of the tapping, most of it was browsing the basic choice for amp (250+), cab (2k+), reverb, delay - if you're going to have a lot of choices, they need to be surfaced somehow (note that there are sort and filter features to make this easier as well). Pretty much all of the modelers have blocks that require multiple pages and they have a page prev/next button so this tapping would happen with most of them.

    The main advantage to the Helix UX is that you can edit in the grid so all editing is basically one level. This is very nice and makes for some really easy quick edits. The problem is that this does not scale well with lots of options. You would be tapping way more if Fractal adopted the Helix UX paradigm and still maintained the same level of flexibility. A good case could be made for advocating that Fractal implement a grid edit mode that provides a core subset of parameters. There is a wish list forum for this sort of thing on the Fractal site. I think it'd be cool to have.
     
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  3. yeky83

    yeky83 Member

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    Doesn't look handmade to me ;)

    I know what you meant. I'm just having fun with the small font talking today.
     
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  4. hvactech

    hvactech Supporting Member

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    Are you talking about just visually or how user friendly it is for adjusting or making patches? Because when it comes to making the patches I don’t find fractal or more or less difficult than the helix. I would say I agree visually but I almost always use the editor and the same applies for the ease of use between editors. Even when I had to adjust stuff from the screen on the fractal it was easy. I say this because if ui has deterred from fractal I’d give it a chance because it’s not hard at all.
     
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  5. Jarick

    Jarick Member

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    Unless someone cracks the code open for both side, I'm going with math on this one. If you can dedicated twice as many amps for a processor as the competition, you are devoting half as many resources to the amp modeling, i.e. the model is less complex.

    The Kemper is not doing component level modeling. You can't shoot an audio signal through an amp and trace the component circuit. It's doing some level of convolution which is completely different. Apples and oranges. That's why you need to shoot profiles for each adjustment to the controls.

    I'm not sure why this is always so controversial. Line 6 appears to have chosen to model amps in such a way that it consumes less resources and allows for greater flexibility for the end user at a lower cost (perhaps at the expense of fidelity). Fractal appears to have chosen to model amps in a more detailed manner to allow for highest fidelity for the end user (perhaps at the expense of flexibility or cost). Kemper appears to have chosen to model amp in a unique way that allows for high fidelity and user creation of additional models (perhaps at the expense of control of the amp model).
     
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  6. mikah912

    mikah912 Member

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    Hoo boy. It would only be math if the models were coded with the same architecture. They aren't. You're comparing apples to steak knives.
     
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  7. Dan Desy

    Dan Desy Supporting Member

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    Isn’t that pretty much exactly what Jarick was saying?
     
  8. Watt McCo

    Watt McCo Supporting Member

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    For my "Fractal-curious" itch, @djd100 makes a very good case for a used II of some sort: https://www.thegearpage.net/board/index.php?posts/28449807/

    Though, honestly - where I need the convenience of modeling, I'm already making so many other concessions that I really don't care if its a little bit, or a tiny little bit off...there's usually some other big barrier to me getting great sound.
    That's DI-bolic, er hyperbolic. It's not like, Cliff is some guy that just started to learn how to code this stuff when he came up with the Axe FX idea. It's not a bad guestimate, given the orders of magnitude we are talking about. Apples to oranges maybe.
     
  9. phil_m

    phil_m Supporting Member

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    So exactly how many angels can fit inside the FM3?
     
  10. nicolasrivera

    nicolasrivera Gold Supporting Member

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    Exactly, thats why overall Fractal Audio smokes everyone else period.
     
  11. mikah912

    mikah912 Member

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    Not at all. He's guestimating - to use Watt's word of choice - that if I can fit one of X on a chip with one product, but can fit 2 of X on the same chip on a different product....that means the former is more complex and detailed than the latter.

    I'm simply saying we don't have enough information about either to assume they're both X. That's not to say Cliff is a coding n00b who can't make efficient models. That's to say we don't know either outfit makes the sausage. We just don't.
     
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  12. Jarick

    Jarick Member

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    I'm just going on what's visible. Fractal seems to use about twice as much DSP as Helix in their amp modeling and exposes about 5 times as many parameters for amp adjustments.

    Would you be insecure about using a less complex amp model? What difference does it make if you like the sound, the flexibility, and the price?
     
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  13. vick1000

    vick1000 Member

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    No
     
  14. Mark Al

    Mark Al Member

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    Not sure how your logic works and how you jump to that conclusion. It's a period for you, but far from being the case for the rest of the world.

    Exposing more parameters is far from implying the amp modeling is more complex, using more DSPs doesn't imply that either. If those logics are true, I'd change all my linear or quazi-linear to quadratic algorithms, and expose tons of "paramters", to give you a super "complex" amp modeling. Will that convince your brain to perceive the tone as realer or with more magic harmonics? :)

    The only judge here is your ear and playing hand.
     
    Last edited: Apr 29, 2019
  15. Watt McCo

    Watt McCo Supporting Member

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    That's demonstrably false. Whether you think it matters, whether you think it has any indication of the modeling "complexity" - who knows. But Fractal does allocate more dsp to the amp model. They just do.
     
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  16. Guitardave

    Guitardave Supporting Member

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    Mostly what I look for is how the UI works for me in live playing situations. Is it slow and distracting it is to make routine tweaks as I'm playing on stage? I don't really worry about the patch creation part of things as there is no rush and I can use a software editor for that. Hopefully there will be some shortcuts/ways to do that with the FM3 but I have my doubts having already owned the Axe III. And I wouldn't use a Helix rack either - once you take away the touch editing with the Floor/LT then the ease of editing disappears.

    It's controversial because it's all guesswork.

    This whole idea that Fractal amp modeling has more detail and requires more processor power originally cropped with Fractal fans trying to explain the one amp "limitation" of the AX8. It also dovetailed into an explanation for why some people prefer the way Fractal sounds. The logic is simple to follow. Fractal sounds better because the modeling is more accurate and detailed. It's more accurate because it's more "complex" and of course a more complex model needs more compute resources. How do we know the model is more complex? Because it uses more compute resources. {Please tell me that other people see the circular reasoning going on?} And the entire argument is largely to prove the point that L6 can run so many amp models only because their amp modeling isn't as good.

    Why not conclude that Fractal modeling was based on less efficient coding choices and/or they have some design limitations in how they can access the CPU resources? Again, all conjecture.

    And really - what difference does it make? Use what sounds and works best to each of us.
     
    Last edited: Apr 29, 2019
  17. nicolasrivera

    nicolasrivera Gold Supporting Member

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    Please, present whats a superior unit than the Axe FX III, maybe i dont know that product.
     
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  18. Dan Desy

    Dan Desy Supporting Member

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    Apples, steak knives. Complex, less complex. Fractal, Line 6.

    Pretty sure that’s what it boils down to.
     
  19. Dan Desy

    Dan Desy Supporting Member

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    Oh, don’t worry. It’ll be a game changer, we promise.
     
  20. Pat6969

    Pat6969 Supporting Member

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    How does the slower processor affect the channel changing speed on the FM3, if at all?
     
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