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Fractal full-sized floor unit

eoengineer

Gold Supporting Member
Messages
2,470
Anyone have thoughts on when we might see one, and what it might look like?

I'm holding out for something that fills a feature set closer to Helix Floor than I can get with the FM3. Lack of availability is the sole reason I don't own Fractal hardware right now. The level of control they provide, and their hardened focus on improving the "feel" of playing through a digital amp modeler has raised my interest in pursuing the hardware, but their current offerings don't meet my needs.
 

gtr37

Member
Messages
6,546
I think the question isnt if its more a when , will they build a full size floor unit on the FC 12 chassis or will they build something more like an LT Helix
Mid range or both
 

eoengineer

Gold Supporting Member
Messages
2,470
I don't think they would want to cannibalize their own rack unit business with a Helix-sized floor unit. JMHO
That may well be the case, but I would question the business logic there. I'll make an admittedly uneducated guess that L6 sells a ton more Helix Floor units than Helix rack units. I suspect Fractal would do the same.
 

gtr37

Member
Messages
6,546
I would like to see this too. My guess is that they are knee deep in sales on FM3/FC6 combos right now though and they don't have a reason to make a larger floor unit.
that is actually a killer combo
Add the the fact FM3 is getting
The new Cygnus modelling
The new drive block , the Ultra res cabs and possibly some pitch block improvements makes it still a very powerful set up w FC6 its a beast
 

Baba

Silver Supporting Member
Messages
7,256
I think that Cliff & Co. have found a good balance of full (rack) and small (floor) footprint units. I could see a plugin based offering, but I don't think they would want to cannibalize their own rack unit business with a Helix-sized floor unit. JMHO
Exactly.

How much would something like that cost?

They already have a (albeit limited) modular system for the floor, that costs as much as a Helix, and has similar footswitch capabilities, so, that's already here.
 

Blanket Jackson

Every day is like Tio's birthday
Gold Supporting Member
Messages
15,994
That may well be the case, but I would question the business logic there. I'll make an admittedly uneducated guess that L6 sells a ton more Helix Floor units than Helix rack units. I suspect Fractal would do the same.
I see your point but I think it's apples to oranges. The better metric would be Axe-Fx III vs FM3 sales. I get the impression that Fractal and Line 6 have very different business models too. You will find many more Fractal products in professional recording set ups, whereas you might likely find far more Helix units on stages. I have noticed a lot more HX Effects units in use lately (far more than I thought) than the full size Helix.
 

DeadLazy

Member
Messages
1,418
I’d love to have an excuse to buy some fractal gear but it’s redundant for me. So I could rationalize something less expensive and more versatile than rack gear. Sure, fractal could have a bigger range.

The problem for me is, I’ve become convinced when people start talking about “feel”, we are all talking massive BS.

When there’s nothing left to talk about with sound, and nobody can tell the difference between anything anymore, we can all hide behind this nebulous concept of feel.

And that changes so much depending on so many factors and the people we BS the most, are ourselves.

That’s happening a lot with the influencers and to be blunt, with QC. Watch a demo and yeah, there are some differences in sound, but there isn’t really anything to talk about anymore. So what does that influencer do?

They start talking some BS about feel and we can’t gauge that in any way, shape or form and there’s nothing to discuss anymore. It means absolutely all of zero but you know, that QC just feels better, more like an amp!

So if Fractal is talking feel, that’s a red flag to me now.
 
Last edited:

Watt McCo

Member
Messages
11,139
Its called FM3 + FC6. The HX Stomp XL KINDA sorta made sense given that folks were adding 3rd party MIDI controllers to their Stomps that required adding an additional power supply and didn't integrate seamlessly within the HX Stomp operating paradigms. Adding an FC6 does not require adding a power supply, nor does it fail to integrate seamlessly within the Fractal operating paradigms. Put another way, I can't imagine that Line 6 would have made the HX Stomp XL if they also already made a 4 button controller extension box, that the HX Stomp was already configured to work well with and that could be powered by the Stomp.

Also, "business" decisions that make sense for larger scale manufacturers that work with larger distributors don't necessarily apply to a small company with limited warehouse space and smaller production runs.
 

Watt McCo

Member
Messages
11,139
I’d love to have an excuse to buy some fractal gear but it’s redundant for me. So I could rationalize something less expensive and more versatile than rack gear. Sure, fractal could have a bigger range.

The problem for me is, I’ve become convinced when people start talking about “feel”, we are all talking massive BS.

When there’s nothing left to talk about with sound, and nobody can tell the difference between anything anymore, we can all hide behind this nebulous concept of feel.

And that changes so much depending on so many factors and the people we BS the most, are ourselves.

That’s happening a lot with the influencers and to be blunt, with QC. Watch a demo and yeah, there are some differences in sound, but there isn’t really anything to talk about anymore. So what does that influencer do?

They start talking some BS about feel and we can’t gauge that in any way, shape or form and there’s nothing to discuss anymore. It means absolutely all of zero but you know, that QC just feels better, more like an amp!

So if Fractal is talking feel, that’s a red flag to me now.
I agree that people are BSing themselves when they talk about "feel". But I think they are BSing themselves simply because they're too dead lazy to listen closely enough to identify what the actual sonic difference is they're "feeling".
 

eoengineer

Gold Supporting Member
Messages
2,470
that is actually a killer combo
Add the the fact FM3 is getting
The new Cygnus modelling
The new drive block , the Ultra res cabs and possibly some pitch block improvements makes it still a very powerful set up w FC6 its a beast
Exactly.

How much would something like that cost?

They already have a (albeit limited) modular system for the floor, that costs as much as a Helix, and has similar footswitch capabilities, so, that's already here.
I agree that FM3/FC6 helps in terms of bridging the gap in switching flexibility and form factor, but unless I'm misinformed on the feature set you still end up being locked to a single signal path, right? If so, that's a large functional difference between the two.

I see your point but I think it's apples to oranges. The better metric would be Axe-Fx III vs FM3 sales. I get the impression that Fractal and Line 6 have very different business models too. You will find many more Fractal products in professional recording set ups, whereas you might likely find far more Helix units on stages.
I suspect you are correct about the professional touring rigs, fractal has a healthy list of artists on their site, some of whom actually surprised me.

One point I do want to make is that fractal has never REALLY put out a floor unit that matched the Helix floor feature set, so its tough to say how thoroughly they could have penetrated that segment of the all-in-one floor unit market. I'm inclined to take the current adoption of the FM3/FC6 as a solid indicator of how many people would likely go for an all-in-one unit because that combo gets closest to that form factor out of fractal's current generation hardware.

I’d love to have an excuse to buy some fractal gear but it’s redundant for me. So I could rationalize something less expensive and more versatile than rack gear. Sure, fractal could have a bigger range.

The problem for me is, I’ve become convinced when people start talking about “feel”, we are all talking massive BS.

When there’s nothing left to talk about with sound, and nobody can tell the difference between anything anymore, we can all hide behind this nebulous concept of feel.

And that changes so much depending on so many factors and the people we BS the most, are ourselves.

That’s happening a lot with the influencers and to be blunt, with QC. Watch a demo and yeah, there are some differences in sound, but there isn’t really anything to talk about anymore. So what does that influencer do?

They start talking some BS about feel and we can’t gauge that in anyway shape or form and there’s nothing to discuss anymore. It means absolutely all of zero but you know, that QC just feels better, more like an amp!

So if Fractal is talking feel, that’s a red flag to me now.
I'm not sure I can agree with you. Having moved between most popular platforms now and just about every plugin, there are differences in feel. What is harder to quantify is whether the difference in feel is just a "difference in feel" across the entire platform, or if it is in fact indicative of more accurate modeling for each emulated circuit. In other words, do the fenders feel more like fenders and marshalls feel more like marshalls, or does the entire platform just feel a different than other platforms. I suppose one could confuse the two.

Its called FM3 + FC6. The HX Stomp XL KINDA sorta made sense given that folks were adding 3rd party MIDI controllers to their Stomps that required adding an additional power supply and didn't integrate seamlessly within the HX Stomp operating paradigms. Adding an FC6 does not require adding a power supply, nor does it fail to integrate seamlessly within the Fractal operating paradigms. Put another way, I can't imagine that Line 6 would have made the HX Stomp XL if they also already made a 4 button controller extension box, that the HX Stomp was already configured to work well with and that could be powered by the Stomp.

Also, "business" decisions that make sense for larger scale manufacturers that work with larger distributors don't necessarily apply to a small company with limited warehouse space and smaller production runs.
Perhaps I am mistaken, but the FM3 does not allow dual amps, which is an important part of the Helix Floor feature set. Correct me if Im wrong. Im all about the modular setup but the FM3 feels a little underpowered for my needs. If their answer to something like the Helix Floor is to introduce a more powerful iteration of the FM3 to be used with the FC6 I think that would be a great solution.
 

Watt McCo

Member
Messages
11,139
I agree that FM3/FC6 helps in terms of bridging the gap in switching flexibility and form factor, but unless I'm misinformed on the feature set you still end up being locked to a single signal path, right? If so, that's a large functional difference between the two.


I suspect you are correct about the professional touring rigs, fractal has a healthy list of artists on their site, some of whom actually surprised me.

One point I do want to make is that fractal has never REALLY put out a floor unit that matched the Helix floor feature set, so its tough to say how thoroughly they could have penetrated that segment of the all-in-one floor unit market. I'm inclined to take the current adoption of the FM3/FC6 as a solid indicator of how many people would likely go for an all-in-one unit because that combo gets closest to that form factor out of fractal's current generation hardware.


I'm not sure I can agree with you. Having moved between most popular platforms now and just about every plugin, there are differences in feel. What is harder to quantify is whether the difference in feel is just a "difference in feel" across the entire platform, or if it is in fact indicative of more accurate modeling for each emulated circuit. In other words, do the fenders feel more like fenders and marshalls feel more like marshalls, or does the entire platform just feel a different than other platforms. I suppose one could confuse the two.


Perhaps I am mistaken, but the FM3 does not allow dual amps, which is an important part of the Helix Floor feature set. Correct me if Im wrong. Im all about the modular setup but the FM3 feels a little underpowered for my needs. If their answer to something like the Helix Floor is to introduce a more powerful iteration of the FM3 to be used with the FC6 I think that would be a great solution.
It doesn't do dual amps. I don't believe we will ever see enough people interested in a $2400+ floor unit to lead to a floor unit with same/very-similar processing power as the Axe III.
 

Watt McCo

Member
Messages
11,139
I agree that FM3/FC6 helps in terms of bridging the gap in switching flexibility and form factor, but unless I'm misinformed on the feature set you still end up being locked to a single signal path, right? If so, that's a large functional difference between the two.


I suspect you are correct about the professional touring rigs, fractal has a healthy list of artists on their site, some of whom actually surprised me.

One point I do want to make is that fractal has never REALLY put out a floor unit that matched the Helix floor feature set, so its tough to say how thoroughly they could have penetrated that segment of the all-in-one floor unit market. I'm inclined to take the current adoption of the FM3/FC6 as a solid indicator of how many people would likely go for an all-in-one unit because that combo gets closest to that form factor out of fractal's current generation hardware.


I'm not sure I can agree with you. Having moved between most popular platforms now and just about every plugin, there are differences in feel. What is harder to quantify is whether the difference in feel is just a "difference in feel" across the entire platform, or if it is in fact indicative of more accurate modeling for each emulated circuit. In other words, do the fenders feel more like fenders and marshalls feel more like marshalls, or does the entire platform just feel a different than other platforms. I suppose one could confuse the two.


Perhaps I am mistaken, but the FM3 does not allow dual amps, which is an important part of the Helix Floor feature set. Correct me if Im wrong. Im all about the modular setup but the FM3 feels a little underpowered for my needs. If their answer to something like the Helix Floor is to introduce a more powerful iteration of the FM3 to be used with the FC6 I think that would be a great solution.
You're not at all locked to a single signal path on the FM3. Uses a slightly smaller grid than the Axe III, but still larger grid than most could ever even figure out HOW to use, much less need to use and WAAAAAAAAY more flexible than anything you can do with any other hardware modeler.
 

DeadLazy

Member
Messages
1,418
I agree that people are BSing themselves when they talk about "feel". But I think they are BSing themselves simply because they're too dead lazy to listen closely enough to identify what the actual sonic difference is they're "feeling".
This is just passive aggressive and meaningless.

The things we can all convince ourselves of.

I acknowledged those sonic differences and in a blind test.... we all know the story.

The music is in your head, not your latest gadget.
 

eoengineer

Gold Supporting Member
Messages
2,470
You're not at all locked to a single signal path on the FM3. Uses a slightly smaller grid than the Axe III, but still larger grid than most could ever even figure out HOW to use, much less need to use and WAAAAAAAAY more flexible than anything you can do with any other hardware modeler.
Ok thanks for the correction. Maybe I need to give the FM3/FC6 another look. The dual amps may be expendable if I can split post amp block and route an IR signal to one output (FOH) and the raw amp block tone to another output (on stage cab). I'd still prefer more juice under the hood, perhaps not full AXE III territory but it might be workable.
 

JRod4928

Member
Messages
77
Perhaps I am mistaken, but the FM3 does not allow dual amps, which is an important part of the Helix Floor feature set. Correct me if Im wrong. Im all about the modular setup but the FM3 feels a little underpowered for my needs. If their answer to something like the Helix Floor is to introduce a more powerful iteration of the FM3 to be used with the FC6 I think that would be a great solution.
What are your specific needs that the FM3 doesn't provide?

If you're mistakenly assuming it only uses a single signal path, you may also be mistakenly assuming other capabilities that it has.
 

dk_ace

Member
Messages
2,286
It doesn't do dual amps. I don't believe we will ever see enough people interested in a $2400+ floor unit to lead to a floor unit with same/very-similar processing power as the Axe III.
Or his new poly pitch stuff, or have the processing power of the rack unit, or multiple reverbs in the chain, or.... You get the point. The FM3+ a controller is not the same as the rack unit.

I agree with you though, I think the market for a truly full power Axe floor unit is really small. If he makes one, I’ll buy it immediately. I doubt he will though, it’s about as big a market as an even more powerful helix floor (which I would also buy immediately...).

I don’t think he could do it for 2400, it probably starts with a 3... Which even for me as a big fan of fractal and powerful all in one floor units is tough to wrap my head around...

D
 

JRod4928

Member
Messages
77
Ok thanks for the correction. Maybe I need to give the FM3/FC6 another look. The dual amps may be expendable if I can split post amp block and route an IR signal to one output (FOH) and the raw amp block tone to another output (on stage cab). I'd still prefer more juice under the hood, perhaps not full AXE III territory but it might be workable.
I do exactly what you just described. It works great.

How you achieve this is put all of your drive/amp/effects, etc in the grid, and then at the very end of the grid, you split the signal. One goes to a CAB block and then OUT1. The other bypasses the CAB block and goes to OUT2.

Perfect to get the Amp sound as your monitor on stage, while sending the IR to FOH.

Personally I run my OUT2 to the FX Return on my 5150 amp, connected to a 1x12 cab. I've posted about this in the past on the FAS forum, but the sound of the AFX 5150 amp simulation sounded better than my 5150 LBX 15 Watt amp. I didn't want it to. I wanted the pure tube amp to sound better - but it didn't. Maybe its because I was using a 100 Watt amp simulation and comparing to an authentic 15 Watt 5150, but either way, it sounded better.

Then I just choose a good IR to send to FOH through OUT1. Something like a 4x12 Greenback or Creamback IR.
 

eoengineer

Gold Supporting Member
Messages
2,470
What are your specific needs that the FM3 doesn't provide?

If you're mistakenly assuming it only uses a single signal path, you may also be mistakenly assuming other capabilities that it has.
Or his new poly pitch stuff, or have the processing power of the rack unit, or multiple reverbs in the chain, or.... You get the point. The FM3+ a controller is not the same as the rack unit.

I agree with you though, I think the market for a truly full power Axe floor unit is really small. If he makes one, I’ll buy it immediately. I doubt he will though, it’s about as big a market as an even more powerful helix floor (which I would also buy immediately...).

I don’t think he could do it for 2400, it probably starts with a 3... Which even for me as a big fan of fractal and powerful all in one floor units is tough to wrap my head around...

D
Yeah I was wrong about the paths, was confusing it for the lack of dual amps. Nonetheless, I think I would be cutting it REAL close with the FM3. I need to be able to split post amp as mentioned in a prior post in this thread, but Im also using a lot of ambient and time based effects that tend to be processing intensive...shimmer verbs, space echos, some pitch stuff here and there. It seems like the FM3/FC6 "kind of" meets my needs, but might come up a little shy.

At this point having gained a better understanding of Fractal's modular system, I would love either a Helix Floor type unit, or a more powerful version of the FM3, which I would pair with an FC6 or FC12. I do still think the Helix is a more elegant solution for the stage, where the all-in-one with the expression pedal built in has advantages. Thats my personal preference though, totally subjective.
 




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