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Fractal's NEW "Quantum(TM)" tube modeling technology

Gearzilla

Silver Supporting Member
Messages
6,317
I haven't the slightest idea. I'm not Atomic.
Fair enough. Jay I find it interesting that you discouraged reverb during a Kemper thread, yet on another thread you're discussing how you're engaged in helping Atomic work on their reverb modeling. What gives? I know you have a lot of experience with loudspeakers and acoustics, and in my short time on TGP I've noticed you've jumped into a Kemper, Line 6, and now Fractal thread in a less than complimentary manner. I have also noticed you jump into Amplifire threads in a more supportive manner. You're not an Atomic fan boy are you? :)
 
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AdInfinitum

Member
Messages
830
This is not a rant or complaint - so please no attacking my humble observations.

While i greatly and sincerely appreciate the myriad of firmware updates (and hard work of Cliff and his team) that do seem timed slightly suspiciously (but heck, that's competition, capitalism, right?) and have loved playing, tweaking my Axe since June 2008, the main issues I have always had with the Axe-FX is that the firmware changes the sound of the unit. Most firmware updates from third parties add features and fix bugs. All well and good and appreciated. The Axe-FX on the other hand adds features, deletes features, re-adds some features after people complain (nice that Cliff listens to his users. right?), changes values, revises amps, cabinets and settings that while some believe it makes the unit better, other, including myself, get a little frustrated that all the patches I've spent a significant time revising, as well as many of the excellent patches downloaded from the Axechange, are totally ruined, borked without any roadmap to get it back to where they previous were. As I've said for the last six years, you wouldn't be happy if Microsoft issued an update of Word which changed all your documents so that the result is gibberish. And yes, while I don't have to update and Cliff has no obligation to release new firmware, that is not the answer. At this point, I just load the new firmware and whatever it does to my patches, I don't really care anymore. I'm tired of wasting time tweaking.

It remind me of the lyrics to Life During Warrime:

I changed my hairstyle, so many times now,
I don't know what I look like!

I can't say objectively (or subjectively) whether Quantum is any better, realer or whatever marketing phrase you want to use from Axe Standard Firmware 4.0 (I think my original axe shipped with 3.something).

One day, I may load firmware 1.0 just to compare it to 20 and Quamtum, just to see whether it is "meet the new boss, same as the old boss" or as Neil Peart has said "the more the things change, the more they stay the same."

Peace!
 

AdInfinitum

Member
Messages
830
One other thing, I did load Quatum and I think it sounds really good. Whether it is better than any other firmware update, I have no idea. It's hard to A/B without re-loading the old firmware and then re-amping - which I don't really have time or inclination to do.
 
M

Member 98218

Whatever is or is not a "secret," it is a fact that you have no idea what actually happened.

"Every opportunity?" Hardly. I don't have the time it would take to exploit every opportunity that arises.

You think you "get it." There's really nothing for you to "get."

Given the number of others who have offered observations that are almost identical to mine, can you not see the possibility that I'm just calling them as I see them? I've also made a number observations about gear made by FAS competitors that other folks have seen as non-complimentary, so you can't really accuse me of discrimination. Well, actually, you just did, but it's a false accusation.


We could play this game until the cows come home Jay. You have no clue if I know what actually happened or not so your comment that its a fact I don't is incorrect. Maybe "every opportunity" is a slight exaggeration on my part but your following sentence only solidifies my point of view as you toss out yet another jab.

I do get it. You have an agenda that arose from your falling out. It's not all that hard to understand Jay. It's quite obvious. You may very well toss out non-complimentary remarks about gear made by FAS competitors but not nearly at the rate you do with the FAS jabs. No doubt it's all just coincidence that this all started after the falling out. :)

Given the number of others that offered observations on your boorish behavior on forums can you not see the possibility that I'm just calling it as I see it? See what I did there?

And you never answered my last question about moving on and being better than that. No need though. The answer is also quite obvious.

Hopefully someday we can all get back to talking about gear where the vast majority of the posts are made along the lines of how can we make this community better, help expand the capabilities of said gear, and come up with creative ideas on usage as opposed to the ever more prevalent arguments on naming conventions, marketing, and business models. And I apologize to all the members for not taking my own advice and taking the thread off topic.

Have a great holiday weekend.
 
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SteveO

Member
Messages
16,942
That's because the Axe sounds closer to earlier versions of itself than it does to actual tube gear.

Quantum adds a more tube like dynamic low end response IMO.

I guess my point was more along the line of a kid being compared to his father throughout his adolescence, and finally the day arrives when he matures and people stop making the comparisons and judge him for his own accomplishments without comparing them to things his father has done in the past. The Axe-FX is a hell of a lot more than "just" an amp modeler, it would be worth the price of admission just for the quality, versatility, and configurability of the effects blocks alone.

And before somebody decides to accuse me of being a Fractal "fanboy", I'm a Kemper owner. For what I'm currently doing it's a better match for my needs, but I seriously have my eye on the Axe-FX as a future purchase.
 

Gearzilla

Silver Supporting Member
Messages
6,317
"It won't, and it can't. Spring reverb on an amp is an effect. Nothing more, nothing less. There's never been one that sounded remotely like an acoustic space, nor one that stood a chance of correcting problems in an actual acoustic space".

Jay, above is a direct quote from your post in the PureCab thread in its entirety.

Really in the grand scheme of things it probably doesn't matter much, but I'm not sure where I've misread? :)
 
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Axeplyr

Platinum Supporting Member
Messages
2,148
I've been thinking of upgrading from my 11R. I have thought about ordering an Axe-fx. But the musical tone updates scare me a little. At the rate it changes, it almost seems indecisive. And tiring. And I don't even own one. :)

How much better can it sound? Why does it need to keep changing if it really is fabulous? When will it finally be done? Will it ever be done?

I have no doubt it sounds good. How kemper/Helix/axefx compare is subjective, I'm sure they are all going to do the job admirably.
 

jpelzel

Member
Messages
321
Jay, above is a direct quote from your post in the PureCab thread in its entirety.

Really in the grand scheme of things it probably doesn't matter much, but I'm not sure where I've misread? :)

Spring Reverb isn't going to give me creamy distortion nor make me waffles. That's not part of the utility. Can still like it though.
 

eriwebnerr

Member
Messages
2,806
Jay, above is a direct quote from your post in the PureCab thread in its entirety.

I'm sorry but what in the hell does this have to do with anything? It doesn't even prove the point you are trying to make. Nowhere in that quote does he discourage the use of reverb.
 

Gearzilla

Silver Supporting Member
Messages
6,317
I'm sorry but what in the hell does this have to do with anything? It doesn't even prove the point you are trying to make. Nowhere in that quote does he discourage the use of reverb.
Jay is familiar with the entire context of the conversation where that quote originally appears. I'm guessing perhaps that you're not, and therefor don't have an adequate frame of reference for an evaluation. Let me know if you feel the same way afterwards if you're inclined to review the entire context.
 

Gearzilla

Silver Supporting Member
Messages
6,317
I'm sorry but what in the hell does this have to do with anything? It doesn't even prove the point you are trying to make. Nowhere in that quote does he discourage the use of reverb.
I'll make it easier for you. There's more to the conversation, but below should provide a little more reference.

"What say ye now Jay about the process known as man made machine derived reverb regarding compensating for acoustic problems? With great power does comes great responsibility. Aarrgh..."

The above quote is my direct question verbatim that Jay is responding to from the other thread.

"It won't, and it can't. Spring reverb on an amp is an effect. Nothing more, nothing less. There's never been one that sounded remotely like an acoustic space, nor one that stood a chance of correcting problems in an actual acoustic space".

Anyways...unless there's something else we should probably get back on track with the actual "Quantum" tube modeling technology. :)
 
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shasha

Member
Messages
1,207
Considering the attention the Helix is getting I am not surprised they decided to go that route to steal some of that attention. If not, probably this would have been part of a regular firmware update as many other improvements much more noticeable than this one. A "cool" name certainly helps to hype it.
You know if FAS wasn't pumping out firmware releases and updates like they were going out of style for the last few years I would think that would be a valid point. The AxeFXII and POD HD came out about the same time. I have 69 firmware updates in my firmware folder and I missed about 20 of them along the way. Since it's release we've seen tone matching, MIMIC, UltraRes, G3, and now Quantum being released as "big" changes worthy of naming them. Tone matching is the only one that you could argue was a direct response to a competitor (because it was no matter what anyone says). :)

The other thing is that if you compare feature sets between Helix and AxeFXII you'll see a lot of similarity; only difference is that one has been doing it for years now and the other was just released. I'm just saying that if anyone is trying to horn in on someone's territory it'd be the other way around. Beyond the scribble strips and colored interface there isn't anything on the Helix that the AxeFXII hasn't had for years.

I'm not trying to argue or anything here, just saying that if FAS didn't release updates on a regular basis that I'd probably think the same thing (and probably wouldn't think negatively of it either). But that's just not the case; the guy is obsessed and has been for a while.

As for Quantum I can't put my finger on it, but there is definitely something that is better. If I was pressed to say what it was I'd say that the harmonics are more obvious; it sounds fuller but also more articulate. Granted I've been playing a lot of Fender style amps lately so that may just be the way those amps are affected. Another thing is that I have almost always pulled the low's back on the cab block to help make sure that it cuts with older firmware. It's been a while since I had to do this because I think that sometime around the MIMIC days that it changed. I'm not saying that it was the same thing, but it feels like a similar type of difference....whatever it was it just made it better.

Does it sound realer? It's sounded real for a long time....it just sounds better. You can make anything sound better without it always having to sound "realer". Honestly the biggest thing is that all of the little tricks and gimmicks that I used to use are useless now when dialing in a patch. I pick an amp, a cab and adjust the tone stack and gain and then I add some reverb and a delay block and I'm done. If I feel crazy I'll put a wah or a drive in there to turn on and off from time to time. So in that regard it's more "realer" because I don't have to go under the hood in the advanced parameters to tweak it to fit in a mix or something.
 

djd100

Member
Messages
3,076
Jay is 100% accurate here, unless of course you're somehow playing inside a spring? :confused:

Spring reverb has never sounded remotely like a real acoustic space, and it never will (though it's still "cool"!). :cool:

Jay Mitchell said: "It won't, and it can't. Spring reverb on an amp is an effect. Nothing more, nothing less. There's never been one that sounded remotely like an acoustic space, nor one that stood a chance of correcting problems in an actual acoustic space".

Gearzilla said: Jay, above is a direct quote from your post in the PureCab thread in its entirety. :)
 

Gearzilla

Silver Supporting Member
Messages
6,317
Reverb as an effect is one of the earliest compensations for space. Jay or anyone else is correct in that it has never remotely sounded like a real acoustic space if that is their perception or measured by instrumentation. However, to me it still appears to be a discouragement of the use of reverb taken in context. Jay has lots of acoustic knowledge, and he's free to express his opinion however he likes.

I take Jay at his word if he says he's not an Atomic Fanboy, and you'll see that I have actually asked Jay for more information about his thoughts on the purpose of reverb. If I happen to have misread something initially then I'm more than happy to reach a new understanding based upon further review whenever that's the case.

I was actually asking Jay about reverb in general with the question I referenced from the PureCab thread because he had already answered another question from me about reverb at the amp prior to that in the same thread.

I'm going to depart from the extra subject matter under discussion now so that the thread can continue to move on more in line with the OP.

In general TGP has been pretty interesting and fun, and I would like to help keep it that way for everyone else....

Anyone can PM me if they want to continue the conversation. :)
 
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AdmiralB

Member
Messages
3,060
I've been thinking of upgrading from my 11R. I have thought about ordering an Axe-fx. But the musical tone updates scare me a little. At the rate it changes, it almost seems indecisive. And tiring. And I don't even own one. :)

What the 'fans' will tell you - and they're right - is, you don't have to accept any firmware updates. Like what you have? Stay with it.

Which works fine. Except you lose any future new features, and often you have to stay with old versions of the editor. But if it works for you, it works. That's what I did with 17.04.

The only time that doesn't work is when they do something like the XL+, which I suspect is an anomaly (I don't think it would have happened if the supply base hadn't forced it).
 

AdmiralB

Member
Messages
3,060
The Axe-FX on the other hand adds features, deletes features, re-adds some features after people complain (nice that Cliff listens to his users. right?), changes values, revises amps, cabinets and settings that while some believe it makes the unit better, other, including myself, get a little frustrated that all the patches I've spent a significant time revising, as well as many of the excellent patches downloaded from the Axechange, are totally ruined, borked without any roadmap to get it back to where they previous were.

I think - obviously I do not know - that what you're observing is the result of a very small company that is the result of one guy's 'project'. He's building what he wants, what he thinks is best, and he's been sufficiently successful at it to develop a loyal following and (ostensibly) healthy business.

On one hand, a setup like this reduces the risk of groupthink and design-by-committee. You get agile response to requests/issues, and of course the 'direct line to the president/owner/whatever'.

The other side is, there's no buffer to help isolate any...idiosyncrasies...that individual might exhibit from the public. I think that there's a reason that most companies started by 'the inspired genius' hire someone else to manage PR.
 
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