FRFR 12" Speaker for Guitar Cab??

Discussion in 'Digital & Modeling Gear' started by M@tt C, May 9, 2015.

  1. M@tt C

    M@tt C Supporting Member

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    Just wondering....does anyone make a flat response/ full range 12" speaker that could be dropped into an existing guitar cab to turn it into a pseudo FRFR passive monitor?

    I currently use a V30 loaded Bogner cube with my Kemper (cab sims turned off) for on stage monitoring...sounds fantastic, but comparing the FOH full profiles to the "monitored" sound there's obviously quite a difference.

    I don't really want to drop a ton of $$ for a true FRFR passive monitor, but I would like to run my mounting setup with the full profile.

    Would a speaker swap do the trick (if it exists), or will the cab still color the sound too much to really make it feasible?
     
  2. colonoscopotamus

    colonoscopotamus Member

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    My (limited) understanding of frfr is that there's way more to it than just the speaker. So, you could find a 12" PA speaker (i know eminence makes a bunch) and drop it in a guitar cab, and you'd end up with something closer to full-range. However, it would be unlikely to be particularly close to a flat response system.
     
  3. moonblack

    moonblack Member

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    try alto ts112a, samson xp112a, etc
     
  4. aleclee

    aleclee TGP Tech Wrangler Staff Member

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    Good speakers aren't cheap. Making them full-range adds even more expense, particularly when they sell in much lower quantities than GBs or V30s. It's not a terribly compelling argument IMO to add a full range speaker to a guitar cab for a pseudo-FRFR that in many ways is the worst of both worlds:
    • It's a good bit more expensive than a regular guitar cab
    • It's far from flat, requiring much different EQ from your FOH
    • Like FRFR, you won't be able to use it with a regular amp
    • Same size and weight issues as with a guitar cab
    All that makes me wonder why someone would want to go that route when it's cheaper and easier to get an inexpensive PA speaker.

    I've thought about designing a folding "guitar cab" where you can put a FRFR speaker behind the grill cloth. That way, players who care about such things (I really don't) could have their sound coming out of a "guitar cab".
     
  5. jbealsmusic

    jbealsmusic Member

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    If your goal is true FRFR, then the cab would still color the sound far too much. Not to mention, there is no single 12" speaker that will do that.

    In most cases, guitar cabs are just boxes with speakers in them. People swap speakers like pickkups, experimenting to find the sound they like. FRFR cabs are designed from the ground up with a specific driver in mind. Change the driver, change the box design.

    All that said, despite warnings like these many people have tried to do what you're asking and have been satisfied with the results. I've seen people load their cabs with a Beta 12CXA & ASD1001 combo (with crossover). That is probably your best full range choice on a budget. For single speaker options you could try whizzers like the Eminence Beta 12LTA, Sovereign 12-250TC, etc. FWIW, these will all give you extended range, but none of them will give you a flat response.

    Best of luck with the swap!

    Out of curiosity, why not just run your guitar through the stage monitors or buy a small monitor for yourself? You can get some useable ones without breaking the bank.
     
  6. M@tt C

    M@tt C Supporting Member

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    Good info to digest, everyone.

    The consensus seems to be that it's not really a viable option, which is fine. It was just something that hit me this morning.

    I prefer the flexibility of a power amp/ passive speaker setup as opposed to a power monitor. I do run my guitar thru the monitors as part of the band monitor mix, but like having my own dedicated monitoring source strictly for my guitar that I can control independently of the main or monitor mix.

    From what I've read most inexpensive wedge monitors really push the mids to make the vocals pop out- kinda right back to where I am with the Bogner!

    A friend just picked up the 12" powered Alto speaker- I may give that a shot and see if I even want to go the FRFR route.
     
  7. Viabcroce

    Viabcroce Member

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    M@tt, the main issue here is that no-one can currently build a single, "FRFR" cone. You'll need at last two for a really extended response (let alone a flat one).
    Anyway, there are passive linear cabs you might consider, such as the CLR.

    :)
     
  8. Plague Dog

    Plague Dog Member

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    I think the Alto TX12 is your answer, you can get one on ebay for less than $200 brand new, and they sound surprisingly good. I have EV ZLX12p and JBL 612m, it sounds better as a guitar monitor than either of them. I haven't tried the Alto as a vocal monitor since I only bought one. I've gotten to where I prefer having it in front of me as a monitor and our singer loves that I don't have a 412 cab behind her that she has to sing over. It makes it easier for the sound man to get a good mix and you don't have to be as loud to hear (and feel) yourself.
    The Line 6 FRFR is just outrageously expensive, I've never heard one so I can't say how they sound.
     
  9. flcmcya

    flcmcya Silver Supporting Member

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    Pm'd u a parts list. It will run you around $150 though. :dunno
     
  10. GCDEF

    GCDEF Supporting Member

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  11. eriwebnerr

    eriwebnerr Member

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    I think you already have the consensus but from my experience I couldn't agree more with aleclee. I went down this road and was very unsatisfied. Even just trying to get a "nuetral" guitar speaker in a 1x12 put me in that weird limbo between the two worlds. I personally like using cabs and speakers I know (warts and all) OR using a monitor. Stay away from the inbetween. My 2 cents.
     
  12. benifin

    benifin Supporting Member

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    Hi M@tt C

    Please see my thread with details, prices, photo's and audio clips here.

    http://www.kemper-amps.com/forum/in...oly-With-Audio-Clip/?postID=224638#post224638

    Not trying to upset any, but I have compared the above to a DXR10 and a [ passive ] CLR ...... whilst both these are clearly *excellent* ..... neither had the guitar "gut punch" of this $80 speaker and my simple home made [ unported ] ply 1 x 12 cab

    Forget the specs and listen with your ears.

    I didn't find this speaker option - I was put on to it by a trusted colleague who spends a lot of time in mid-high end studios and who runs his Axe FX II with one.

    I rang him after I tried it ....... all I got on the other end was laughter interspersed with " I told you I wasn't joking " :)

    This whole " ~ $800 FRFR " industry / cult / business is just getting downright plain silly :) ...... its become the " bottled water " of guitar speakers ......... there, I said it !!!!!! :)

    Hope this is of some help / use.

    Ben
     
  13. jbealsmusic

    jbealsmusic Member

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    Considering the main complaint of the OP was that there is "quite a difference" between his stage sound and FOH sound, this is far from a solution. I have no doubt it sounds great, but it will not solve OP's problem. He may as well just stick with his current cube, which already "sounds fantastic".

    :facepalm Terrible analogy. Good FRFR systems put out what gets put in. Nothing more, nothing less. Guitar cabs are the exact opposite of that. You're comparing apples to oranges. If your guitar cab is giving you a "gut punch" that an FRFR system is not, then you've either tried a substandard FRFR system or your modeler is not generating that sound to begin with. I'd bet money it's the latter.
     
  14. chrisjnyc

    chrisjnyc Member

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    Yea, just get a Eminence Beta speaker and tweeter, and mount it in your cab...
     
  15. Viabcroce

    Viabcroce Member

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    Agree with jbealsmusic here. The OP was looking for an "FRFR" solution. The ultimate answer is that this is not possible with a single cone. It won't most probably be possible even by installing two cones (or a coaxial system) into any cab if there's been no engineering on the crossover section and on the box' resonances.

    Ben, linear and transparent is not an opinion! Tastes are tho X)

    :)
     
  16. eriwebnerr

    eriwebnerr Member

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    Hey Ben, everything else aside that speaker looks very interesting. Thanks for the tip!
     
  17. Jay Mitchell

    Jay Mitchell Member

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    Sorta like the whole "~$2k modeler" industry, huh? :rotflmao

    Seriously, "~$1k" is at the very low end of the price range for serious stage monitoring solutions. You may not recognize the value of the higher-performance products in that market, and you may not appreciate the superior clarity and coverage uniformity of the best of breed. You are free to choose/build and recommend whatever DIY solution you were able to put together. However, your implication that the folks who do choose to play through quality monitors are some sort of "cult" is both insulting and ironic, given the money you spent on your chosen modeler.
     
  18. benifin

    benifin Supporting Member

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    Hey all

    I genuinely get the whole maths / science / specs / GRFR / FRFR / Cab Size / Cab Bracing / Cab Porting etc ...... issues.

    I also get how great the DXR 10 and Passive CLR are - no arguments from me - I have in the past 2 months now spent some good quality time with each of these - they are each fantastic !!!!

    If you want to or need to or have to spend $100 on a solution for your sound and tone or $1000 on a solution for your sound and tone .... thats great :) .... enjoy .... )

    What I am saying and backing up with real world audio clip is:-

    - there is absolutely no GRFR or FRFR "standard"

    - there is absolutely no Studio Monitoring "standard"

    - there is no holy grail for GRFR / FRFR / Studio Monitoring

    - the DXR10, CLR and my " HMPAC " [ Home made Ply and Celestion* ... I couldn't resist :) ...] all sound great -and- all sound differnent

    - I know this is TGP ..... but always trust your ears ..... ears beat specs every time .... always .... period

    See this clip below - apologies in advance for the sloppy noodling and tuning :)

    [soundcloud]https://soundcloud.com/ben-ifin/celestion-frfr-2[/soundcloud]

    This is:-

    - Kemper in to Matrix SS Amp in to HMPAC*

    - Recorded [ again ] in harshest possible real life way I could - Nokia Lumia 830 Phone Mic placed 3 feet directly in front of the speaker and direclty centred to the speaker - full thow

    - very loud full bore [ rock guitar ] stage volume at my house [ sorry neighbours :( ]

    - 00m 00s - Div / 13 RSA Britsh

    Studio Profile Free on Rig Exchange - Guitar Volume Up and Down

    03m 30s - Cranked Marshall


    D.I Profile Free on Rig Exchange Merged with 4x12 IR - Guitar Volume Up and Down

    05m 00s - Cranked DC30 Ch1 1

    My Studio Profile of My Ceriatone DZ30 [DC30 Clone] - Free on Rig Exchange - Guitar Volume Up and Down

    I do own a DZ30 and I can assure that the above profile sounds at least as good as my real DZ30 Head in to my real 2 x 12 GT75 Celestion closed backcab.... [ btw..... I did the profile :) ]

    I dont own a D/13 RSA but a good friend does and he is in complete and total denial about this Kemper profile :)

    I used to own several Marshalls but haven't had one for a while ...... but if my "ear memory" serves me correctly, this is pretty fine classic Marshall grind / grunt :)

    All I can say in summary is this.

    You may think the above audio clip sounds crap or brilliant ..... it doesn't matter ...... thats actually irrelevant.

    What is relevant is that I can assure you that the DXR10 and the Passive CLR are no better sounding or no worse sounding with these same profiles and same Kemper Head and same Matrix SS amp - all 3 are audibly noticeably different from each other but all 3 are great

    Peace to all and enjoy your tones .... we are right in the middle of digital / modelling guitar golden-age.

    Ben

    PS: Jay - fair point - my " cult " comment was out of line and unfair - didnt mean it to be, but it was - my apologies. FWIW I can assure you that my hearing and ability to discern and appreciate audio tone, quality, fidelity, clarity etc.... is pretty good too .... :) ..... all the best ...... and I cannot stress enough, you do make awesome product - I hope I have emphasized that in my posts, because it is true !!!
     
    Last edited: May 12, 2015
    ur2funky likes this.

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