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FRFR speaker vs combo

pureanalog

Member
Messages
126
Well we all are familiar with the real amp in your face sound. Sound through a P.A. or speaker monitors usually sounds like a good recorded amp. But nothing like a real amp in your room.

My question is if a modeller (higher end ones especially) can sound like a real amp in your room without using a guitar cabinet and power amp. With an FRFR speaker for example. Or will it always sound like a well recorded tone?
 
Messages
619
I was using a Roland Jazz Chorus (80 watt JC77) for a few years, until it started to go wonky from time to time.
Replaced it with a TECH 21 Power Engine (PE 60, which is 60 FN loud watts, roughly $350) Has 12" Celestion Seventy 80 speaker. On 4, I'm going toe-to-toe wit a Marshall half stack on 7.
Using Zoom G5 processor, L&R outputs combined into single cable to Tech 21. But could go XLR out of Zoom to XLR in of Tech 21. Tech 21 also has a XLR output to go to another Tech 21 or a mixing board.
Getting a lots of compliments of my guitar tone using a variety of guitars (Epiphone Les Paul Ultra and Ibanez RG420DX)
 

OldNo.7

Member
Messages
169
Well, since you titled the thread "FRFR Speaker vs. Combo", I'm guessing that the "in the room" sound your used to hearing is probably from an open-back combo amp.

If that is the case, the answer for me was no. FRFR won't sound like an open back cab. It can get close, but......
 

Pietro

2-Voice Guitar Junkie and All-Around Awesome Guy
Messages
16,446
My question is if a modeller (higher end ones especially) can sound like a real amp in your room without using a guitar cabinet and power amp. With an FRFR speaker for example. Or will it always sound like a well recorded tone?
If you want an amp in the room, get an amp and a room.

If you want a full signal processing model (not just the amp), get the modeler.

For me, the "amp in the room" is what I'm trying to get rid of, so that I hear what the audience will hear. so modeling is best. For you, it might be otherwise.
 

brianr0131

Member
Messages
4,439
If you want an amp in the room, get an amp and a room.

If you want a full signal processing model (not just the amp), get the modeler.

For me, the "amp in the room" is what I'm trying to get rid of, so that I hear what the audience will hear. so modeling is best. For you, it might be otherwise.
I agree 100%
 

Pietro

2-Voice Guitar Junkie and All-Around Awesome Guy
Messages
16,446
Trying to get rid of it like it is a bad thing. I don't get it.
Thought I explained why. In all honesty, if you want an amp in the room, get an amp and the room. Seriously. That's why they still make 'em.
 

LagunaMan

Member
Messages
665
I don't think you can get an exact sound of a cab out of frfr speaker because of the crossover from woofer to tweeter which is like 2khz. Cabs usually go up to 5khz. Personally, I like the sound out of the frfr speaker and wished my cabs had tweeters in them. For a modeller you always want to go with frfr to take advantage of the emulated speaker and cab options in the modeller and to tweak your sound.
 

lspaulsp

Platinum Supporting Member
Messages
5,876
If you don't get it before you go into modeling. There's a good chance your going to waste some money before telling everyone how much modeling sucks and going back to amps.

If you get a great amp in room sound and you run it Front of House then you you have a great AIR sound going straight out to the public.
If you get a great AIR sound and put a full range speaker behind you and crank the hell out of it you wind up with a great AIR sound inside another AIR sound which turns muddy and sorta to me out of phase (for lack of a better term) which you will hate.
If you set the amp up as a normal amp and let the FRFR cab work within the room your playing then you wind you with a normal AIR sound.
The three will NEVER be the same.
 

pureanalog

Member
Messages
126
I usually don't gig so large venues. So the sound from the amp is usually the amp that is heard in the club. Sometimes I might mic up the combo amp to spread the sound better. I like the way the amp sounds. I am just contemplating on if it's better to go for an FRFR sound or a guitar cab sound (which limits you to just one cab).
 

Gasp100

Gold Supporting Member
Messages
23,720
I'm amazed at how many players really rely on FOH and personal monitors for their guitar tones at ALL of their gigs... I guess times have changed (or everyone is playing great gigs ;)
I rarely play out nowadays, I have some close friends who gig regularly and they rarely mic their amps. I just don't see micing amps or relying on FOH at the places I play or go to for checking out live music. It is always back line amps and maybe micing into FOH for better blend. So in these cases I prefer modeler + power amp + cab on stage. Then using the second output with cab sims on for FOH to blend things. Very loud FRFR forced to handle back line duties in these cases usually sound super strident and harsh in my experiences.
As far as 'in the room' there are so many options for IRs, room parameters, etc nowadays in some modelers it can be pretty easy to get a quite convincing, breathing, room experience through FRFR especially for recording. I think it's important to have a plan and a rig(s) to fit the environment of where you are playing.
 
Messages
3,765
"Amp in room" is an out-dated concept.

All that really is is when you setup your guitar tone to sound its best 4 ft away and off axis from your speakers. Its been the normal thing to do for so long people don't realize how silly it is since no music we listen to, either it be recorded or live, captures that sound.

I personally blame "amp in room" for all the horrible guitar tones I've heard live. I'm sure it sounded TITS to the guy on the stage off axis to his guitar cab but his REAL tone is on axis right in front of his speaker and is what is sent to an audience. Something most guitarists would even freely admit they don't like the sound of...

My JBL monitor with my AxeFX2 sounds wonderful on stage and is MUCH better sounding then any amp on stage. When you combine that with the fact that I know the sound pumping right at my face is exact sound the audience hears, then its a full win-win. (Not to mention all the soundguys that become your best friend once they find out your stage volume is practically "0" due to the monitor facing away from the audience)
 

grorig

Member
Messages
114
Both works fine for me, but I prefer an amp in a comfortable volume on stage,for the "amp in the room" feel as you said, and I send FR signal to PA for the audience.
I hear a similar sound that the audience hear (the guitar sound in the mix with the whole band) from PA stage monitors.
 

Scott Peterson

TGP Co-Founder and Administrator
Staff member
Messages
37,734
"Amp in room" is an out-dated concept.

All that really is is when you setup your guitar tone to sound its best 4 ft away and off axis from your speakers. Its been the normal thing to do for so long people don't realize how silly it is since no music we listen to, either it be recorded or live, captures that sound.

I personally blame "amp in room" for all the horrible guitar tones I've heard live. I'm sure it sounded TITS to the guy on the stage off axis to his guitar cab but his REAL tone is on axis right in front of his speaker and is what is sent to an audience. Something most guitarists would even freely admit they don't like the sound of...

My JBL monitor with my AxeFX2 sounds wonderful on stage and is MUCH better sounding then any amp on stage. When you combine that with the fact that I know the sound pumping right at my face is exact sound the audience hears, then its a full win-win. (Not to mention all the soundguys that become your best friend once they find out your stage volume is practically "0" due to the monitor facing away from the audience)
Totally 100% agree.
 

Will Chen

Platinum Supporting Member
Messages
7,044
"Amp in room" is an out-dated concept.

All that really is is when you setup your guitar tone to sound its best 4 ft away and off axis from your speakers. Its been the normal thing to do for so long people don't realize how silly it is since no music we listen to, either it be recorded or live, captures that sound.

I personally blame "amp in room" for all the horrible guitar tones I've heard live. I'm sure it sounded TITS to the guy on the stage off axis to his guitar cab but his REAL tone is on axis right in front of his speaker and is what is sent to an audience. Something most guitarists would even freely admit they don't like the sound of...

My JBL monitor with my AxeFX2 sounds wonderful on stage and is MUCH better sounding then any amp on stage. When you combine that with the fact that I know the sound pumping right at my face is exact sound the audience hears, then its a full win-win. (Not to mention all the soundguys that become your best friend once they find out your stage volume is practically "0" due to the monitor facing away from the audience)
To be fair, there are many who use combos tilted back and placed stage left/right to get a clearer aural image and allow the soundman greater control out front.

Personally, I like it both ways. When I'm using weird effected non-traditional synthy tones, I really, really want a full range response as those types of tones typically don't work in traditional rigs. On the other hand, the familiar sound of an amp and cab is something which is something I often yearn for due to the amount of time I play via headphones. And while an FRFR gets close, its not quite the same for me (granted, I've never played high end FRFR stuff). Though by not the same, I'm not saying one way is better than the other. Simply that there's some areas in life where familiarity breeds comfort, like a ratty stained T-Shirt vs pressed dress shirt and tie.
 

grorig

Member
Messages
114
To be fair, there are many who use combos tilted back and placed stage left/right to get a clearer aural image and allow the soundman greater control out front.

Personally, I like it both ways. When I'm using weird effected non-traditional synthy tones, I really, really want a full range response as those types of tones typically don't work in traditional rigs. On the other hand, the familiar sound of an amp and cab is something which is something I often yearn for due to the amount of time I play via headphones. And while an FRFR gets close, its not quite the same for me (granted, I've never played high end FRFR stuff). Though by not the same, I'm not saying one way is better than the other. Simply that there's some areas in life where familiarity breeds comfort, like a ratty stained T-Shirt vs pressed dress shirt and tie.
+1000
 

lspaulsp

Platinum Supporting Member
Messages
5,876
"Amp in room" is an out-dated concept.

All that really is is when you setup your guitar tone to sound its best 4 ft away and off axis from your speakers. Its been the normal thing to do for so long people don't realize how silly it is since no music we listen to, either it be recorded or live, captures that sound.

I personally blame "amp in room" for all the horrible guitar tones I've heard live. I'm sure it sounded TITS to the guy on the stage off axis to his guitar cab but his REAL tone is on axis right in front of his speaker and is what is sent to an audience. Something most guitarists would even freely admit they don't like the sound of...

My JBL monitor with my AxeFX2 sounds wonderful on stage and is MUCH better sounding then any amp on stage. When you combine that with the fact that I know the sound pumping right at my face is exact sound the audience hears, then its a full win-win. (Not to mention all the soundguys that become your best friend once they find out your stage volume is practically "0" due to the monitor facing away from the audience)
BOOM! Good answer.
 

pureanalog

Member
Messages
126
I personally blame "amp in room" for all the horrible guitar tones I've heard live. I'm sure it sounded TITS to the guy on the stage off axis to his guitar cab but his REAL tone is on axis right in front of his speaker and is what is sent to an audience. Something most guitarists would even freely admit they don't like the sound of...
Well sure it happens, but personally I move around the venue during the sound check (with my wireless) and check out the sound in several spots. Then I change my settings and placement according to my taste.
 
Messages
3,765
Well sure it happens, but personally I move around the venue during the sound check (with my wireless) and check out the sound in several spots. Then I change my settings and placement according to my taste.
Then your situation doesn't apply to my statement since you are not setting your amp to "amp in room" but rather setting up your sound to how it actually sounds to the audience.
 






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