Fuchs Train45 Discussion Thread

[Frankenstrat2]

This thread got de-railed with cross-purposes of a Fuchs affiliated individual promoting the clips vs. consumer interest in discussing the product in the Forum.

Here is a re-post of where the discussion resumed:
***************************

I'd like to comment on the clips, the Train45, and Fuchs amps in general.
There has been so much discussion, actually almost endless discussion about the Fuchs ODS vs. 'real' Dumbles vs other Dumble inspired amps.
Now I see the same thing happening with the Train45 vs vs the 'real' Wrecks vs the other Wreck clones and
Wreck-inspired designs.

I followed the evolution of the Fuchs ODS amp design from when I first became aware of it back around the time I met Andy at the last PRS Forum event through the latest (and I hope the final ) evolution of the SLX. My postion regarding the Fuchs vs. a 'real' Dumble has always been consistent.
1. I cant afford a Dumble.
2. Dumbles are notoriously inconsistent from amp to amp. What is a 'good Dumble'?
3. Since Dumbles are so rare and expensive, if a builder can build a Dumble-inspired amp that *is* consistent from a production basis, and it is affordable, and meets my expectations, I would be interested in owning it- from a practical standpoint- cost and service- and from an aesthetic standpoint- how good does an amp have to be to be good enough?
I recently purchased a Fuchs SLX50 combo because, for me- it filled all of the above requirements while also managing to beat out the competition in terms of bang-for-the-buck.

Now history seems to be repeating itself with the Train45.
Apparently it has a Trainwreck 'inspired' circuit, and is not trying to be a clone of any particular 'Wreck.
So now we have the same criteria again. I'll cut and paste and substitute some names. Here we go:
1. I cant afford a 'Wreck.
2. 'Wrecks are famously individual from amp to amp. What is a 'good 'Wreck'?
3. Since 'Wrecks are so rare and expensive, if a builder can build a 'Wreck-inspired amp that *is* consistent from a production basis, and it is affordable, and meets my expectations, I would be interested in owning it- from a practical standpoint- cost and service- and from an aesthetic standpoint- how good does an amp have to be to be good enough?
I would consider purchasing a Train45 because, for me- it seems to fill all of the above requirements while also managing to beat out the competition in terms of bang-for-the-buck.

From a marketing standpoint, Andys biggest cross to bear has been the positives and minus' of trying to build amps that capture the essence of a particular famous amp builders sonic signature while also building amps that are consistent, roadworthy, affordable, and serviceable.
I have played through some excellent real TrainWrecks. I found them to be somewhat over the top and uncontrollable for my style of playing. Not a useful amp for what I do. Especially not when they have to cost $20k. I missed my chance to own one for $1200. My loss.
I've heard and played the Komet too, Several times. Same comment as above except for the cost. Not a knock on the Komet. Didn't work for me.
I did get to play the Train45. Andy could have called it the Rockslide45 or the Fuchs Beetlebop for all I care.
Its a cool amp. It has a good tonal signature. Its *very* touch responsive from the guitar. A different amp from anything else I've played, including other 'Wrecks. To me it is more user-friendly.
So I dont know if the Train45 moniker is actually a good or bad thing for either Andy OR the 'Wreck/Komet afficianados. That remains to be seen, but I see the same old tired BS starting all over again.
And to repeat my earlier statements on another thread- I hate clips, even very good ones. I don't see how any amp can be judged once the sound has been squished, mp3'd, broadbanded, and computer-speakered. Yuk.
Play the thing. Crank it, Feel it.
Then you know if you like it.
Clips suck.
All of them. Even good ones.
A clip is NOT an amp. Its not even a studio CD.
Its a clip.
Yuk.

 

[hansoloist]

Originally posted by Frankenstrat2
...And to repeat my earlier statements on another thread- I hate clips, even very good ones. I don't see how any amp can be judged once the sound has been squished, mp3'd, broadbanded, and computer-speakered. Yuk.
Play the thing. Crank it, Feel it.
Then you know if you like it.
Clips suck.
All of them. Even good ones.
A clip is NOT an amp. Its not even a studio CD.
Its a clip.
Yuk.

Amen to that, brutha! Once again, one must consider Trisonic's law. Passing judgement on an amp based on clips alone is some pretty damn risky business, regardless of how good or bad they are. I thought the Ruby clips on the Two Rock site sucked. But when I played the amp, it sounded fantastic. I think the Komet 60 clips are great. However, I found the amp to be much brighter and stiffer sounding, and not as gainy in person. So much for going by clips.

On top of that, I'm sure there are more than a few Ken Fisher/Komet loyalists out there who would love to see Andy's Train 45 go down in flames. I'm sure there are those who feel that Andy's manufacturing and selling a Wreck-inspired amp without the well-wishes of Ken Fisher is some taboo ****. Hey, people are entitled to their opinion. The problem is that when people start passing judgement on Andy's amp based on their principles how the amp actually sounds is irrelevant. Good...bad...doesn't mean **** when people's minds are made up before they hear the first note.

peace
-jeff

 

[trisonic]

Just to reiterate, trisonic's law states:

Don't rely on clips, good or bad. Try before you buy unless you already know the builders work intimately.

Nothing new there, just refining it. If you can't find a store near you then organize or attend a Tone Fest.

Best, Pete.

 

[Distortion]

I think it is quite interesting timing for the Train 45 to be coming out at the same time Komet amps is releasing the KF-50 amp. The KF-50 is designed by Ken Fischer and built by the Komet folks.
I am sure both amps will be great, but it sure would be nice to own a new Trainwreck amp that was designed by the man himself..

 

[aleclee]

Originally posted by barbarossa
Huh? What happened to the thread with the clips and people's responses?

It's in the Dealer's Emporium.

 

[pureoldsound]

Correct me if I am wrong but I thought both the ODS and the Train 45 were clones of each respective designs…That they were tweak to provide a different taste correct but still share same design… BTW that is not the problem with the amp, and I am not a D or TW or K owner….The Train 45 has the same the same design (if I am not mistaken same OT, PT and Choke….) that the TW yes it was tweaked to get that Fuchs voice which is that low mid emphasis sound you’ll hear in the ODS series….There are a series of factors that need to be taken on count…First to my understanding Greg used a prototype amp which did not have the Sag control which gives the ability to choose from a resistor or choke. The resistor will give you a bit more smoothness and the choke will be more vintage sounding…We don’t know if the bight or low switch was used…sounded a bit bright so it might had been engaged?????

I think people were expecting a real TW Exp type of sounds…..Is not so much of it is a clone or not is about sound…..I think those clips did not have those TW characteristics….I think for people who will have to rely on clips…better studio clips will have to be recorded……Not everyone will have the opportunity to play one in person clips sometimes is the only alternative……

First impressions are the key…If proper clips, that will give a faithful representation of the amp, weren’t ready to be revealed…. I think it was better to wait……Reason why it is getting bad reviews……

 

[Fuchsaudio]

Valid points all. Therein lie the issue in a nutshell: I agree, clips do not an amp purchase make.

The Komet files are truly a benchmark. Of-course they included a real band, recorded in an excellent studio with professional production. The soundfiles show it, but they are nothing compared to playing that amp (or any other) in-person. Barry is totally right: The "feel" and "girth" and touch response cannot be conveyed through a soundfile, no matter how well it's done. Period.

If you wish to prejudge an amp based on "taboo-****" or "bad karma", so be it. This fits the same category of "PC board amps can't sound good".

A footnote: Until Distortion's post, I'd never heard of the existance of "a KF-50 amplifier", and as of this writing, it appears nowhere on the Komet website, so I'm sure how I would be expected know about it. If it's a similar product, kudos to Hogy and crew. I wish them success with it.

 

[hansoloist]

Originally posted by Fuchsaudio
...If you wish to prejudge an amp based on "taboo-****" or "bad karma", so be it. This fits the same category of "PC board amps can't sound good"...

Andy, just so we're clear, I am not of this mindset (just in case you misread my post). I wish you nothing but success...I plan on playing one when I hit Ultrasound in a few weeks (or months).

peace
-jeff

 

[Frankenstrat2]

Originally posted by pureoldsound
Correct me if I am wrong but I thought both the ODS and the Train 45 were clones of each respective designs…

Uh- how can a PCB be a 'clone' of a point to point amp?
Reproducing a tribute to a tonal signature is not a clone, IMO, its a 'type' of sound. ie. blackface, tweed, marshall, vox, dumble,wreck.
A clone is an attempt to reproduce the exact circuit, values, components etc.
Personally, I wouldn't consider any Fuchs production amp a clone.

That they were tweak to provide a different taste correct but still share same design…

I'm not sure thats exactly correct.

BTW that is not the problem with the amp, and I am not a D or TW or K owner….The Train 45 has the same the same design (if I am not mistaken same OT, PT and Choke….) that the TW yes it was tweaked to get that Fuchs voice which is that low mid emphasis sound you’ll hear in the ODS series….

So right there it is not a clone. As soon as you do that it should not be considered a clone. Its a variation, a spin-off. A 'tribute' amp. A flavor.

I think people were expecting a real TW Exp type of sounds…..

Even if thats so, its still premature to judge clips of a prototype as the definitive acceptance or dismissal of a new product. The reactions seem severe from my perspective after hearing and playing the amp.

Is not so much of it is a clone or not is about sound…..I think those clips did not have those TW characteristics….I think for people who will have to rely on clips…better studio clips will have to be recorded……Not everyone will have the opportunity to play one in person clips sometimes is the only alternative……

IMO its not the way to judge an amp. Period.
Go read the thread on the NYC ToneFest DVD if you haven't already.
BTW, there was one amp there that had a gotten a terrible reputation from the Forums. I reserved judgement until I heard it in person. Then and only then was I able to form an opinion. Clips can only be a reference point. But not a particularly useful one, IME. There's too much leeway for a good amp to sound bad and for a bad amp to seem acceptable.

First impressions are the key…If proper clips, that will give a faithful representation of the amp, weren’t ready to be revealed…. I think it was better to wait……Reason why it is getting bad reviews……

WEll, on the one hand there are nine pages of people pleading for clips, and then when a few clips are rushed into distribution people are giving bad reviews.
Are you reviewing the amp or the clips?
IMO- only the clips.
But I think its shameful and terribly unfair to malign an unreleased product simply based on clips. I can't recall this ever happening before. The guys who played and heard this amp all liked it. When it goes into production, and they start shipping, I'd rather see reviews from trusted sources that have actually played and heard the thing than to create negativity about preliminary clips that spill over to the product.
b.

 

[ericb]

Originally posted by Frankenstrat2
Uh- how can a PCB be a 'clone' of a point to point amp?
Reproducing a tribute to a tonal signature is not a clone, IMO, its a 'type' of sound. ie. blackface, tweed, marshall, vox, dumble,wreck.
A clone is an attempt to reproduce the exact circuit, values, components etc.
Personally, I wouldn't consider any Fuchs production amp a clone.



I'm not sure thats exactly correct.


So right there it is not a clone. As soon as you do that it should not be considered a clone. Its a variation, a spin-off. A 'tribute' amp. A flavor.


Even if thats so, its still premature to judge clips of a prototype as the definitive acceptance or dismissal of a new product. The reactions seem severe from my perspective after hearing and playing the amp.


IMO its not the way to judge an amp. Period.
Go read the thread on the NYC ToneFest DVD if you haven't already.
BTW, there was one amp there that had a gotten a terrible reputation from the Forums. I reserved judgement until I heard it in person. Then and only then was I able to form an opinion. Clips can only be a reference point. But not a particularly useful one, IME. There's too much leeway for a good amp to sound bad and for a bad amp to seem acceptable.

WEll, on the one hand there are nine pages of people pleading for clips, and then when a few clips are rushed into distribution people are giving bad reviews.
Are you reviewing the amp or the clips?
IMO- only the clips.
But I think its shameful and terribly unfair to malign an unreleased product simply based on clips. I can't recall this ever happening before. The guys who played and heard this amp all liked it. When it goes into production, and they start shipping, I'd rather see reviews from trusted sources that have actually played and heard the thing than to create negativity about preliminary clips that spill over to the product.
b.

Just for the record, I reviewed the clips.. They sounded fine. They didn't sound great . They sounded ok. They sounded nothing like anything Trainwreck I'd ever heard (However that's not too much) .. Noone with a brain , or noone who's actually a guitarist would review an AMP strictly by a CLIP.... As for people pleading for clips, they surely did, and they got em , so guess they're now they're posted for their perusal and their reviews(positive and negative) ... Remember they were done in the same professional studio where John Cougar records and there was a rundown of the decent pro gear used to record them so they certainly should represent the amp's sounds and Mr Fuchs posted them on his own webpage so he must feel they're representative right? Or maybe these were different ones than the ones recorded by the guy who was waiting to finish something by John Cougar? ANyway, there's my pov. Good luck all

Eric

This is an edit I threw in after I read Greg's post below. Sorry to insinuate that these were done at the above-mentioned studio , AS THEY WEREN"T. There must 've been a change of plans and I missed posts that mentioned that this is a different series of clips. So nevermind what I wrote above about the studio part. The rest surely still is my view, but just 1 of many many many views that will always differ in life! Rock on

ERIC

 

[Tag]

Originally posted by Frankenstrat2

Clips suck.
All of them. Even good ones.
A clip is NOT an amp. Its not even a studio CD.
Its a clip.
Yuk.

IMO, Clips are great. They are worth FAR more than page after page after page of descriptions. Sound clips are worth more than endless words. No, it is NOT the same as playing an amp. But for me, every amp I have liked on clips, I have liked or LOVED in person. The amps I have disliked in clips, I have disliked (or worse) in person. We base our likes and dislikes on what we hear in the studio for the most part. (VH brown sound, Fords Dumble, Zeppelin II, etc etc.) Yes there is lots of tweaking going on in the studio, but you can still hear the sonic signature of those amps. (For the most part.) Eddie Bermans clip of a TwoRock is what made me seek them out. I was not disappointed. The clips at the Bruno site literally nail his amps tones. Leon Cs clips of the Orange are extremely close to what that amp sounds like in person. A bad clip is usually pretty easy to tell. Take mine for instance. You can hear digital clipping all over. I think for a somewhat educated ear, its easy to tell what is a badly recorded clip.

Obviously I love them.. Keep em' coming girls and boys!

 

[Frankenstrat2]

I dont base much on descriptions or discussions of sound either. Mostly I base opinion on:
If someone I know and respect, who has good ears and lots of experience- (take Leon as a good example)
says:" I played a such and such- you should check it out" I consider that valuable. I respect his ability to describe an amp more than hearing clips of it digitally watered down.
Same thing. If someone who I respect says- I played a such and such and it sucks- don't bother- thats firm ground for me to view it with a jaundiced eye.
So far everyone who heard Andy play the proro T45 at SteveKs jam were positive. Not a negative word from people who HEARD and PLAYED it.
I HEARD and PLAYED it.
You TAG, seem to want to have it both ways. When we are discussing the Dumbles- you want to say-"Well I PLAYED this one and that one, so I don't care what you think about clips or what others say, because I KNOw, because I PLAYED one.
But here on this thread, your position is that these particular clips should be enough for people to form a righteous opinion?
Because you, TAG, say so?
Please...
Dude....

 

[pureoldsound]

This debate will be a no win situation.....Every Fuchs loyalist will favor for the amp K or other TW loyalist will vote contraire to others opinions…so opinions rest on neutrals which don’t own either one….like me….No is not fair to judge something you have not played……Yes we all have been bitching about getting clips…To compare these clips to other amps who used a professional guitar player and studio time to record clips is not fair……But to a certain degree now you see the dilemma and the importance of producing accurate or close to accurate representation of an amps capabilities on clips…….Like I mentioned not all of us will be able to try one in person so yes we need clips to give us an idea on what to expect from the amp…..I’ve heard very good clips that delivers a very close representation of the product….as a matter of fact I own an amp that clips on the website actually are close if not exact to how it sounds in person…….

No I am not judging this amp based on bad clips….nor I am saying that the amp is bad…My argument is simply is it was rushed in because of the high demand for clips…..Based on the information I gathered clips were professionally recorded in Nashville and apparently that CD was stolen….I am sure that there must be a copy of those clips…I would have waited to get that copy and post that…that is all….

About the K comparison…not fair to compare as that was professionally recorded…However based on users and people that have tried the amp the majority say it is real close to those clips when you hear it in person……

I think it got rushed in……..Some will see ridiculous to buy an amp based on clips (and yes you should play the amp before you buy it) but I am sure there are a lot of consumers that don’t have that luxury…Not everyone lives in NY or has an Ultra sound store nearby…..

Secondly those clips were recorded with a not completed amp…The amp has other important features that were not incorporated……Another reason why it was better to wait…..

 

[trisonic]

I disagree with you - do people really favour guitar amps like they do British Soccer teams? That implies that they can do no wrong.

I haven't had the pleasure of meeting Hogy but I get on very well with him and find both Andy Fuchs and Ken Fischer very nice guys indeed - but I own none of their amps!
Like FS2 I nearly bought a 'Wreck for around $1G from Ken a good few years ago (I still have his pricelist, real glossy photos and other literature which he sent me).

If I was considering spending over 2 grand on an amp I would certainly consider the airfare to Baton Rouge and buying lunch for Mike and Hogy in return for trying their amp a very good deal indeed...

Best, Pete.

 

[Frankenstrat2]

Originally posted by trisonic
I disagree with you - do people really favour guitar amps like they do British Soccer teams? That implies that they can do no wrong.

I haven't had the pleasure of meeting Hogy but I get on very well with him and find both Andy Fuchs and Ken Fischer very nice guys indeed - but I own none of their amps!
Like FS2 I nearly bought a 'Wreck for around $1G from Ken a good few years ago (I still have his pricelist, real glossy photos and other literature which he sent me).

If I was considering spending over 2 grand on an amp I would certainly consider the airfare to Baton Rouge and buying lunch for Mike and Hogy in return for trying their amp a very good deal indeed...

Best, Pete.

Especially if that includes oysters, gumbo and a po-boy.

 

[trisonic]

Originally posted by Frankenstrat2
Especially if that includes oysters, gumbo and a po-boy.

Absobloodylutely!

Best, Pete.

 

[voodoogreg]

Just for the record, since I did the clip ,NO CLIPS MADE IT OUT OF BELMONT MALL OR OTHER PROFESSIONAL MUSIC STUDIO! we got some rtym tracks bedded in but NOTHING else was done since the owner needed his studio back and my schedule didn't really permit me to work elsewhere.
Add to that the overwelming call for Andy to get "any" clip's out
put us in a place were anything was better then nothing which like most thing's in life is abad corner to be in.

What was online was well explained, they were done in a very small one room A/V film production studio were the engineeer does everything is direct I had no real monitoring
to speak of, and no isolation, a real nightmare to do. So with a full blast 45 watter going in the same room we didn't get what wanted. PLus i make my living on the othe side of the glass, I don't know very much of what is going on till it's done.

So just to for the record no pro recording studio, (mellencamps)
and a one night to record mix and master what came out. of the A/V facility.

And I didn't really want to do clip's till i could do them right, but 8 pages on a thread clamoring for them, more then I had ever seen to be honest, ( I did a search to confirm that) so the pressure to get "anything" out was bad enough for me, and I bet it was killing Andy.

The amp may or may not be the wreck your looking for, but I have a whole disc of clip's of wreck's that sound much less wreck then
the these hurried clip's.

Anyway to clarify, no clips have been done in a "real" full on music studio.

You will be hearing better clips of the "fuchs 45" from me in a better studio. none the less it's a monster amp no matter what
it may or may not sound like compared to it's inspiration. VDG

 

[ericb]

Originally posted by voodoogreg
Just for the record, since I did the clip ,NO CLIPS MADE IT OUT OF BELMONT MALL OR OTHER PROFESSIONAL MUSIC STUDIO! we got some rtym tracks bedded in but NOTHING else was done since the owner needed his studio back and my schedule didn't really permit me to work elsewhere.
Add to that the overwelming call for Andy to get "any" clip's out
put us in a place were anything was better then nothing which like most thing's in life is abad corner to be in.

What was online was well explained, they were done in a very small one room A/V film production studio were the engineeer does everything is direct I had no real monitoring
to speak of, and no isolation, a real nightmare to do. So with a full blast 45 watter going in the same room we didn't get what wanted. PLus i make my living on the othe side of the glass, I don't know very much of what is going on till it's done.

So just to for the record no pro recording studio, (mellencamps)
and a one night to record mix and master what came out. of the A/V facility.

And I didn't really want to do clip's till i could do them right, but 8 pages on a thread clamoring for them, more then I had ever seen to be honest, ( I did a search to confirm that) so the pressure to get "anything" out was bad enough for me, and I bet it was killing Andy.

The amp may or may not be the wreck your looking for, but I have a whole disc of clip's of wreck's that sound much less wreck then
the these hurried clip's.

Anyway to clarify, no clips have been done in a "real" full on music studio.

You will be hearing better clips of the "fuchs 45" from me in a better studio. none the less it's a monster amp no matter what
it may or may not sound like compared to it's inspiration. VDG

SORRY, my mistake , as last I had read someone had sorta boasted that the clientele at the studio were the reason the clips took awhile. TOTALLY my fault if I missed some posts explaining that these were a different series of clips. I'll edit my post .

ERIC

 

[voodoogreg]

Originally posted by cpokay
I for one appreciate voodoogreg's and Andy's efforts in getting clips out - hell, I asked (really begged) for them -- But I'm obviously reserving judgment until Eddie Berman gets one in at IndoorStorm, and if he lets me, I'll play the balls off the thing til I make my mind up. The Train 45 is a more realistic option for me than trying to obtain a real 'Wreck (just - ain't - gonna - happen - ever - never - ever), and the clips have had the intended effect -- I can't wait to hear it IN PERSON! If it's anything like a 'Wreck Express (no other amp out there IS that I am aware of, seems like KF has made sure of that, for good or ill), it is going to be hell on wheels, brutha.

my $.02

Chris

And that's how it should be. I don't have this kinda stress doing
my regular work no red light fright,, nothing. But trying to emulate
something so sacrosanct on this board.......
Thanks cpokay, that really helped me de-stress over this.

I feel comfortable in the fact that when start recording the next clips they will be professional as possible, and it will sound like Andy's train 45. a great amp regardless what people not doing the clips think. VDG

 

[Tag]

Originally posted by Frankenstrat2
I dont base much on descriptions or discussions of sound either. Mostly I base opinion on:
If someone I know and respect, who has good ears and lots of experience- (take Leon as a good example)
says:" I played a such and such- you should check it out" I consider that valuable. I respect his ability to describe an amp more than hearing clips of it digitally watered down.
Same thing. If someone who I respect says- I played a such and such and it sucks- don't bother- thats firm ground for me to view it with a jaundiced eye.
So far everyone who heard Andy play the proro T45 at SteveKs jam were positive. Not a negative word from people who HEARD and PLAYED it.
I HEARD and PLAYED it.

But here on this thread, your position is that these particular clips should be enough for people to form a righteous opinion?
Because you, TAG, say so?
Please...
Dude....

FRANK,
I also trust Leons ear for many things. I have heard him play, and he is an excellent player. That means a lot to me in terms of judging an amp also. However, we also disagree about some amps, where he likes a clip and says it is excellent, and I do not at all. I trust the clip a lot more than the words.

You TAG, seem to want to have it both ways. When we are discussing the Dumbles- you want to say-"Well I PLAYED this one and that one, so I don't care what you think about clips or what others say, because I KNOw, because I PLAYED one.

FRANK: Im not sure what you are talking about. I DID provide clips! Many of them! One whie directly quoting a Ford tune. Ye seem to have forgotten that. It was NOT all words. I sir, am a man of action! :BEER

In terms of the words....and the E.Pro and Fords tone. If I were reading on the net, and some guy was swearing up and down that he played all of the amps being discussed side by side, directly with 3 original Dumbles, for about 16 hours total, on 4 occasions, while bringing in a tape of Fords tone, and directly trying to match it, I would say that carries some weight. I would also see that, he provided MANY clips of the amp in question, that he was a good player, and could cop Fords tone extremley well. I would also see that his "bias" came from playing the amps in question, and that he had no "former" agenda on which to base a bias. LOL! That would be icing on the cake for "me".


Now, all that being said, I do NOT think someone should base a final decision on clips of amps that sound very similar, even along with words. As with ANY amp, the final decision should be on playing the amp. If that is not possible, then I would base it on what "I" hear in a "good" clip over someones description every day of the week.