G+7 = G7#5 ?

MikeMcK

Gold Supporting Member
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5,571
As a mostly self-taught guy I have to ask the occasional dumb question... this is one of those times.

In the Real Book version of 'You Are the Sunshine of my Life' they charted a G+7 chord. I don't think I've ever seen that before. If I understand it, it seems like it should be the same chord as the more commonly written G7#5.

Or am I missing something? Is 'G+7' supposed to imply something I'm not getting?
 

Timboguitar

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1,388
To be more precise, G7#5=G+7. In other words, + is an abbreviation for the augmented 5th, or #5. Make sense? In music, we've always looked for concise and effective abbreviations.

Tim
 

ngativ

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1,024
To be more precise, G7#5=G+7. In other words, + is an abbreviation for the augmented 5th, or #5. Make sense? In music, we've always looked for concise and effective abbreviations.

Tim
Then It should be G7+, not G+7, unless '+' acts more like an operator instead of abbreviation . If it acts more like a operator then G7+ would be Gmaj7 and maybe that's the meaning of it in brazil. As operator '+' G5+ by convention would be just G+.
 

Jim Soloway

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14,492
Then It should be G7+, not G+7, unless '+' acts more like an operator instead of abbreviation . If it acts more like a operator then G7+ would be Gmaj7 and maybe that's the meaning of it in brazil. As operator '+' G5+ by convention would be just G+.
It's not being used here as an operator. Just an arbitrary symbol. If it was used as an operator and trailed the number, it would be too easy to infer that it was altering the extension that followed the 7. (And the confusion that arises from this is why I prefer to just write chord names in full rather than using shortcuts. On my charts that would read as G7#5 or G7#5#9 etc. It may be less concise but there's also less ambiguity)
 

ngativ

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1,024
It's not being used here as an operator. Just an arbitrary symbol. If it was used as an operator and trailed the number, it would be too easy to infer that it was altering the extension that followed the 7. (And the confusion that arises from this is why I prefer to just write chord names in full rather than using shortcuts. On my charts that would read as G7#5 or G7#5#9 etc. It may be less concise but there's also less ambiguity)
What about this, [ G+79+ ] :D? Is that too crazy? I think that's just the equivalent of [ Gm#5 ]
 

Jim Soloway

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14,492
What about this, [ G+79+ ] :D? Is that too crazy? I think that's just the equivalent of [ Gm#5 ]
I would assume that G+79+ has a major third so it really isn't the equivalent of Gm#5. More important, I don't find it to be especially obvious and that's really the function of these symbols: to quickly communicate specific information with clarity.
 

JonR

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15,132
As a mostly self-taught guy I have to ask the occasional dumb question... this is one of those times.

In the Real Book version of 'You Are the Sunshine of my Life' they charted a G+7 chord. I don't think I've ever seen that before. If I understand it, it seems like it should be the same chord as the more commonly written G7#5.

Or am I missing something? Is 'G+7' supposed to imply something I'm not getting?
No, it's just a wrongly written G7+ (G7#5) as you guessed.
In fact, it's a wholetone chord (as opposed to an altered dominant), and you could add a 9th too, or even a #11. Stevie Wonder plays a wholetone lick over it.
 

cubistguitar

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Messages
5,956
What about this, [ G+79+ ] :D? Is that too crazy? I think that's just the equivalent of [ Gm#5 ]
I like the m7#5 chords , they are kinda like a stack of maj seconds, different in function and direction from dom7+5+9, thats a dominant sound

Cm7+5 = C,Eb,G#,Bb ( I like how you can invert the Ab, Bb, C, in fun ways, like an Ab maj plus 2nd)

C7+5+9 = C,E,G#, Bb, D# ( still has the tritone between E and Bb, major 7 between E and D#, not at rest)
 

cubistguitar

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5,956
, I don't find it to be especially obvious and that's really the function of these symbols: to quickly communicate specific information with clarity.
Ding, Ding, Ding, we have a winner, the symbol should communicate not pitches but what harmonic function, the pitches are up to the player, of course they should be attributed to the symbol, but you should get info about function not merely note choice
 

ngativ

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1,024
I would assume that G+79+ has a major third so it really isn't the equivalent of Gm#5. More important, I don't find it to be especially obvious and that's really the function of these symbols: to quickly communicate specific information with clarity.
Mmm, i remember that when i "learned" chord notation , there where M(major) and m(inor) so you have GM and Gm. I don't know why people "have" to assume that it has to be major if there is no (M) nor (m), but you are right. Given that assumption is not the same . The "9" specifies the interval beyond the immediate octave anyways .


I like the m7#5 chords , they are kinda like a stack of maj seconds, different in function and direction from dom7+5+9, thats a dominant sound

Cm7+5 = C,Eb,G#,Bb ( I like how you can invert the Ab, Bb, C, in fun ways, like an Ab maj plus 2nd)

C7+5+9 = C,E,G#, Bb, D# ( still has the tritone between E and Bb, major 7 between E and D#, not at rest)
Nice!
 

gennation

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7,629
You're always at the mercy of the transcriber. Sometimes you just need to hear and figure out how it makes sense to you and realize how else it could be written.

Personally, I usually always deal with the triad first and then any extensions. So I'd call it G+7. That tells me my triad is Major and the 5th of the triad is raised, then we add a b7.
 

MikeMcK

Gold Supporting Member
Messages
5,571
What about this, [ G+79+ ] :D? Is that too crazy? I think that's just the equivalent of [ Gm#5 ]
I'll leave that one to you guys. If I'm on a one-off gig using charts and I come across a G+79+, I'm probably playing a G octave until that chord goes away. :)
 

Guinness Lad

Senior Member
Messages
15,860
What about this, [ G+79+ ] :D? Is that too crazy? I think that's just the equivalent of [ Gm#5 ]
No, it's G7 #5 and #9

play it like so

F on 4th string
B on 3rd string
D# on 2nd string
A# on 1st string

Normally I would think of D# and A# as e flat and B flat, but I hate to piss off all the pureists out there.
 

ngativ

Member
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1,024
No, it's G7 #5 and #9

play it like so

F on 4th string
B on 3rd string
D# on 2nd string
A# on 1st string

Normally I would think of D# and A# as e flat and B flat, but I hate to piss off all the pureists out there.
What is the difference with G+79+ ?

G+ = G5+ = D♯
G7=F
G9+ == A♯

That's a Gm7♯5 but with the minor third above the octave, not necessarily equal but equivalent . I don't see the Major unless is specified as Gmaj , GM or is specified as implicit by the transcriber . A major would be GM7♯5♯9 or G+M79+

People should always assume enharmonicity unless the notation specifies otherwise.
 

Jim Soloway

Member
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14,492
What is the difference with G+79+ ?

G+ = G5+ = D♯
G7=F
G9+ == A♯

That's a Gm7♯5 but with the minor third above the octave, not necessarily equal but equivalent . I don't see the Major unless is specified as Gmaj , GM or is specified as implicit by the transcriber . A major would be GM7♯5♯9 or G+M79+

People should always assume enharmonicity unless the notation specifies otherwise.
People should assume that what's being said is what's accepted as being said. This is not a theoretical exercise. It's a means of communication. If you want to set your own grammatical rules, you are free to do so but don't expect others to understand you. G7#5#9 is assumed to include a major 3rd because it is the accepted meaning of the symbol by the overwhelming majority of those who use it and that's all that is necessary to make it so. And from a practical standpoint in this instance it makes perfect sense. In a hand written chart especially, it is too easy to confuse a lower case "m" and an upper case "M" so the accepted use of "m" meaning minor and the absence of an "m" meaning major is much easier to read on the fly than having to distinguish between "m" and "M".
 

JonR

Member
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15,132
Mmm, i remember that when i "learned" chord notation , there where M(major) and m(inor) so you have GM and Gm. I don't know why people "have" to assume that it has to be major if there is no (M) nor (m),
Because that's the convention. I don't know where you learned "GM" for G major, but it's definitely unconventional.
"G" is quite sufficient to indicate a G major triad, and that's how I've seen it in all the chord charts and songbooks I've ever seen.
(You sometimes see something like "GM7", but the M in that case is referring to the 7th, not the triad/3rd.)
 




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