George Benson Subs

Discussion in 'Playing and Technique' started by fenderlead, Feb 13, 2018.


  1. Tag

    Tag Gold Supporting Member

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    Bb-7 over D minor is the A7 altered scale. V-I back to D-7.
     
  2. Tag

    Tag Gold Supporting Member

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    The V of V is making that ii chord a dom7#9. Benson does that a lot, but that is not the way he uses the maj7th against the Dom 7 chord. I raked Richie Hart over the coals about it, but he got it straight from George. Down a whole step from Dom 7 chord, play that maj arp. (Off the flat V sub) AND....the blues scale from the root chord. The flat 5 gives you the major7 over the Dom 7 chord. Those two ways are the primary techniques George uses to utilize that note, straight from the man himself! :)
     
  3. Tag

    Tag Gold Supporting Member

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    From multiple sources, Metheny jammed with George backstage at a Kenny Garrett concert in California when Pat was touring with Kenny. Pat was quoted as saying "I felt like a beginner again, its back to the drawing board".

    I spoke to Mike Stern directly about G.Benson who he brought up, when Mike was playing at 55 bar years ago. His comments were hysterical. He said he had either forgotton how good George was, or was unaware, but got his arse handed to him in an uptempo jam. He praised George and talked about his unreal playing on "Uptown and Cookbook".

    :D
     
  4. Tag

    Tag Gold Supporting Member

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    @JonR
     
  5. fenderlead

    fenderlead Member

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    I think it can be simplified even more.

    The Cm over a D7 is pretty common (from memory it's in Mickey Baker's book as well) and George uses it.

    If that Cm is moved up 3 frets, then it's a Ebm over D7.

    The way George is playing Ebm over D7 (from the examples I've seen) suggests he's thinking Ebm (and probably even Cm up 3 frets) to get even more altered sounds.

    The Cm over a D7 comes from the iim7 (Am7) moved up 3 frets (resulting in a Am7b5 sound which is also a D7b9 sound).

    Then there are all of the diminished and 7b9 3 fret things as well.

    Thinking in 3 fret movements can produce a lot of useful things.

    So go 3 frets up from the iim7 and it's 7b9 sounds and go 3 more frets up and it's more altered sounds and going further up with the 3 frets thing can be used as well and they could even be all combined in a sequencing way to produce some angular altered lines.

    3 fret movements once again.
     
    Last edited: Feb 14, 2018
  6. Tag

    Tag Gold Supporting Member

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    Remember this all comes from the diminished subs. Now look at the dominant chords George groups together for a dominant 7 chord. In C, thats ii, IV, V and Vii. So take the V chord, G7, and its related dominant chords. The ii is D-7, the IV is Fmaj7, the V is G7 of course, and the vii is B-7b5. All those chords can be subbed for one another, and moved up and down in -3rds. Thats all in my other thread, and remember you can mix them. Its not one or the other, all though you can do that too. The real fun comes when you start mixing them. 2 notes from one, 3 notes frim another, etc.
     
  7. fenderlead

    fenderlead Member

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    Yeah, I read that in your thread which quite frankly has ballooned out into some monster page count that's a bit hard to get through IMO (very good thread though), so I thought I'd just concentrate on what he's using in some of his transcriptions and trying to see what was going on in some examples in a short concise sort of way (just some quick examples) and your thread goes into more detail and also your examples.

    Of course the other side to George's playing is his strong blues and funk side which is more easier (sort of) to get a hold of for rock players.

    But blues is deceiving because thinking it's simple isn't it, it's how a player uses it and George has his own way of using blues things.
     
    Last edited: Feb 14, 2018
  8. Tag

    Tag Gold Supporting Member

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    Absolutely. He plays straight up blues one chorus, covers parts of changes here and there, and then plays right over some of them. It can drive you nuts transcribing him. Most guys you slow down and its almost by the book. Not George. You slow it down and it sounds like hes playing perfectly over the changes, but then you put it back to normal speed and it sounds like a typical cliche blues lick. Which is it?? Both.
    :bonk
     
  9. StevenA

    StevenA Member

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    Bmaj7 over G7
    Gmaj7+5 is basically Bmaj7
     
  10. fenderlead

    fenderlead Member

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    Couldn't the Bmaj7 over G7 also be viewed as a half step move resolving into Cmaj7 and the Bmaj7 F# note just so happens to be the Cmaj7 b5th note and results in a possible good sound.

    Half step moves from above and below the target are very common.

    It's probably possible to get something out of Dm7 Bmaj7 Cmaj7 and Dm7b5 Bmaj7 Cm7 and D7 Bmaj7 C7
     
    Last edited: Feb 14, 2018
  11. Bluesful

    Bluesful Supporting Member

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    Yep.

    One take away I have from that book is that a iv - I move is just an altV - I move.
     
  12. Tag

    Tag Gold Supporting Member

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    GOOD thinking!

    I came to thIs conclusion years ago: You can find subs of the same quality as the tonic both above and below every tonic chord. Soo....you can think of it like a slide guitar player sliding into every tonic chord from a half step above or a half step below. Maximum tension with a half step resolution to every note. When you hear subs, you are hearing pretty much the same thing as that, except with single not phrases instead of a slide hitting them all at the same time. Its the same type of harmonic tension though, and shows you why the phrase is what makes it so interesting, not the "out" part. Learn those bop lines!!
     
  13. ivers

    ivers Member

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    Those same triads are found in the A whole-half diminished scale also. This scale can be seen as functionally the same as B7, the dominant (V) of E (V). Which I guess means you can use some of the same triad as building blocks to both hint to the V, and the V of the V..
     
  14. StevenA

    StevenA Member

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    Both 1/2 steps above and below represent altered V-I
    The more out you get on dominant chords, the easier the resolution.
     
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  15. fenderlead

    fenderlead Member

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    George seems to be playing a Emajor and C#minor type thing over an F7 (starting at the end of the previous C7) around 1:20

    It sounds a bit out but that's the intent of it.

    Rhythm Changes chord progression



     
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  16. fenderlead

    fenderlead Member

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    Bars 12 - 14 (Cm7 F7 Fm7 Bb7 Eb Ebdim) maybe loosely based on Bb blues scale and then bringing it into Bb (bar 16) and chromatic ascent to Bb chord tones (bar 17).
     

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