Gibson Forcing Workers To Work During Co-Vid19

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eoengineer

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I am also “forced” to work - even though I’d rather not. In the end, I do prefer work to starvation.
This, for me, is that single sentiment that starts to trigger a strong negative reaction when I hear about employers staying open.

My frustration isn’t with Gibson, or the worker. My frustration is with the system. We have SO MANY individuals and small businesses in this country that are scraping by. So many of us lack the resources to exercise any real resilience to adversity. This virus has exposed the vulnerability of the American worker and small business owner.

A choice between exposure to a potentially deadly virus and starvation is not a choice at all. Any reasonable person can make or at least understand that argument.

This is an imperfect situation with imperfect solutions that will unfortunately lead to some people losing their lives, many people losing their livelihoods, and a whole lot of disruption.

We need to do better by our small businesses and our workers. If the average American had any kind of savings sitting in the bank, weathering social distancing wouldn’t be quite as much of hardship. Instead we immediately transition into full collapse.

Well not knowing if that's meant as a good thing or ?? But one of the first thing we would be reminded in Journalism refreshers was NO ONE can relay information without it filtering through their personal prejudices.. except those receiving intense training... Think CIA, Special Ops.. Spooks in general... etc...

Of course guys remember, any training/education I received was in another "world" of Journalism. Dan Rather hadn't repeated the question asked, "What did he know, and when did he know it, yet? And with that question, the News ceased being a Public information service, and it became Entertainment... Thanks Dan, .. enjoy Just Deserts...

But knowing that at the forefront, prepares one to view what's being said, or read, with the reality, the awareness .. This is what that guy wants me to think. Or, EVERYONE is "selling" something...

r
It’s unclear to me whether you are using the poor credibility of some journalists to dismiss the Gibson article or the severity of this virus as a whole...but I’m hoping it’s just the Gibson article.

We can agree that not all journalists care about transparency and objectivity. We aren’t going to agree if you are using that criteria to dismiss this virus.
 

DrewH

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2,553
This is misinformation. We have perfectly healthy men and women in their 20's and 30's who are in ICU and would die without a ventilator. It's a smaller percentage but it is real. Saying most will be ok is factually correct but seriously misleading the seriousness of the situation
We have 38k diagnosed cases and 400 deaths. They are saying the amount of actual untested/unconfirmed/asymptomatic cases could be 10 times that. So, lets say 380k total infected. When you consider the amount of actual critical patients and deaths to that number, it's not at all misleading to say most people will be ok and especially younger people with no pre-existing conditions.
 

Vuur

Member
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67
We have 38k diagnosed cases and 400 deaths. They are saying the amount of actual untested/unconfirmed/asymptomatic cases could be 10 times that. So, lets say 380k total infected. When you consider the amount of actual critical patients and deaths to that number, it's not at all misleading to say most people will be ok and especially younger people with no pre-existing conditions.
Do you think it will remain 38k cases and 400 deaths?
 
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And time for another science break!

FYI...This is from an immunologist at Johns Hopkins University.
Feeling confused as to why Coronavirus is a bigger deal than Seasonal Flu? Here it is in a nutshell. I hope this helps.
Feel free to share this to others who don’t understand...

It has to do with RNA sequencing . . . i.e. genetics.

Seasonal Flu is an “all human virus.” The DNA/RNA chains that make up the virus are recognized by the human immune system. This means that your body has some immunity to it before it comes around each year . . . you get immunity two ways . . . through exposure to a virus, or by getting a flu shot.

Novel viruses, come from animals . . . the WHO tracks novel viruses in animals (sometimes for years watching for mutations). Usually these viruses only transfer from animal to animal (pigs in the case of H1N1) (birds in the case of the [original] Spanish Flu). But once, one of these animal viruses mutates, and starts to transfer from animals to humans . . . then it’s a problem. Why? Because we have no natural or acquired immunity . . . the RNA sequencing of the genes inside the virus isn’t human, and the human immune system doesn’t recognize it so, we can’t fight it off.

Now . . . sometimes, the mutation only allows transfer from animal to human, for years it’s only transmission is from an infected animal to a human before it finally mutates so that it can now transfer human to human . . . once that happens, we have a new contagion phase. And depending on the fashion of this new mutation, that's what decides how contagious, or how deadly it’s gonna be.

H1N1 was deadly . . . but it did not mutate in a way that was as deadly as the Spanish flu. It’s RNA was slower to mutate and it attacked its host differently, too.

Fast forward.

Now, here comes this Coronavirus . . . it existed in animals only, for nobody knows how long . . . but one day, at an animal market, in Wuhan China, in December 2019, it mutated and made the jump from animal to people. At first, only animals could give it to a person . . . but here is the scary part . . . in just TWO WEEKS it mutated again and gained the ability to jump from human to human. Scientists call this quick ability, “slippery.”

This Coronavirus, not being in any form a “human” virus (whereas we would all have some natural or acquired immunity), took off like a rocket. And this was because, Humans have no known immunity . . . doctors have no known medicines for it.

And it just so happens that this particular mutated animal virus, changed itself in such a way the way that it causes great damage to human lungs.

That’s why Coronavirus is different from seasonal flu, or H1N1 or any other type of influenza . . . this one is slippery. And it’s a lung eater . . . and, it’s already mutated AGAIN, so that we now have two strains to deal with, strain S, and strain L . . . which makes it twice as hard to develop a vaccine.

We really have no tools in our shed, with this. History has shown that fast and immediate closings of public places has helped in the past pandemics. Philadelphia and Baltimore were reluctant to close events in 1918 and they were the hardest hit in the US during the Spanish Flu.

Factoid: Henry VIII stayed in his room and allowed no one near him, till the Black Plague passed . . . (honestly . . . I understand him so much better now). Just like us, he had no tools in his shed, except social isolation.

And let me end by saying . . . right now it’s hitting older folks harder . . . but this genome is so slippery . . . if it mutates again (and it will), who is to say, what it will do next.

Be smart folks . . . acting like you’re unafraid is so not sexy right now.

#flattenthecurve.
Stay home folks . . . and share this to those that just are not catching on.
I don't know if I've ever mentioned this, but I rather like the way you think. Good name too. (Where is my recorder?) I have fond memories of playing and listening to Telemann as a kid. But of the two and a half (Handel had dual nationality) great Germans of the period, I fell for Bach slightly more.

Myles na Gopaleen had a running joke of puns between Keats and Shelley in his longtime column in the Irish Times. I wish I had the wit to recast it between Telemann and Bach, maybe in epistolary form.

As is, I think we will all have a bit more time for reading, writing, and practicing. OK, none of us will be working, but we can hone our stuff. Do the needful and improve ourselves and what we do. This may be difficult if we are all queuing for 2 hours a day to buy cabbage (in the meat line, obviously) but even so...

When this is all over, folk are going to want to party like it's 1999. We have to hold it together for now then we can provide the party. Thing is to try to be sensible. In the meantime the onus is on each of us to act as if we have the virus whether we do or not; and working, staying home or whatever, we must try not to pass it on by strict hygiene and sensible social distancing.
 
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hunter

Silver Supporting Member
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6,779
Nope.
Trails the US in every category except costs.

Details Here



Larry
Not according to the WHO. Just goes to show, it depends on who picks the numbers and how they are compared. I think WHO has a much better handle on evaluating factors that make a health care system work.

BTW, Italy ranked 2nd. US ranked 37th. Behind Dominica and Costa Rica.
 

teleman1

Silver Supporting Member
Messages
14,953
Man, who knows the exact answer on what to do. I think Gibson should be only allowing a few employees to work<(IF THEY WANT OR CAN), and staggered days. Use the time have it disinfected so the few workers are in a safe zone. Explain to them distance protocol, and use the time to clean up, modernize, upgrade some things in the facility. And soul search their whole being in the market. There are many companies who should be looking at such a route.
Imagine who much pride the worker would give if they were treated in this fashion. Instead, they have them running scared, building your next 335.
 

Ron Kirn

Member
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6,984
It’s unclear to me whether you are using the poor credibility of some journalists
Yes.. that's the point... but... using the Gibson article as an example... we have no idea what the whole story might be. We cannot. That's the fault of whomever wrote it, or the Editor for approving it for release.

r
 

RRfireblade

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3,043
But here's the thing about all of this. You basically have two options, to do everything you can to save lives or do nothing. Is this the most deadliest virus we've seen or we'll see? Of course not. Are people going to die from it if we do nothing? Absolutely. So ultimately who get to decide who lives and who dies? Who gets to choose what number of deaths is acceptable from an otherwise preventable situation? I'd be curious to see how many people would put their own friends, families, and loved ones in that Lottery willingly. I would bet not many.

The economic side is a whole other discussion. Not only here in America but especially here in America we are a want it now Society. Everyone is in debt, everyone has credit against them, few people have money in the bank. People generally live check to check by choice. Is that preventable? In most cases yes it is. But you can no more force people to plan for these situations then you can force people to wear a seatbelt in a car. Whose fault is that? I don't know. Maybe we need these kinds of things to teach a new generation old tricks.
 

LJOHNS

Member
Messages
783
This thread is going a lot of different directions. We could debate the health and economics of all this to no end.
I will say that most American’s spend more than they have. They buy new cars every few years have all the latest greatest toys etc... and live beyond their means. It really hits home in situations like this. I know many have a tough time getting by but also but I see way more of the later.
I am fortunate enough to have a job in the electric utility industry. No way we shut down unless it’s the apocalypse. I drive a 13 year old truck that was paid for a decade ago that I maintain perfectly. We have at least two months food supply, a good generator, fuel, water, plenty of tp, and lots of ammo and arrows. We live in the country and can hunt and grow our own food. I can also build and fix anything needed myself. I am glad I grew up in a time when I was taught to do these things and live within my means.

City folks have no idea how to survive when things turn bad. Maybe this will be a wake up call for many...
 
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rawkguitarist

Member
Messages
10,991
Economy means nothing to a virus. That's what I meant about you getting your head around this. You'll get there eventually. When the coffins start piling up you'll suddenly have a depression in the correct perspective.
There's multiple ways to unpack your post here. One - the economy means nothing to a virus is a cute true statement. But think about your quip there... IT also has no logical connection to human beings that survive. To those that do not die the economy will mean almost everything. The human reaction to possible society breakdown also means nothing to the virus. A high rate of suicided (a ****ing fact) means nothing to the virus. Of course all is true that I said there... but doesn't matter other than illustrating the uselessness of the abstract exercise you began. Suffice it to say the virus in this situation is 100% not the the only cause of death in a crisis of this magnitude.

Regarding Italy's health system you've extolled in this thread as backup for how bad its going to get here in the US. Do you know what the population of people over 65 is in Italy compared to the United States? Do you know the population density of Italy compared to the US? Look it up for "perspective".

What criteria are you using to rate the quality of the Italian health care system? Are you talking about "free" or highly subsidized access? Are you talking about price controls due to free/subsidized access which reduces supply of services/goods with price controls? Are you talking about the 7-10 month wait for knee and hip replacement respectively? (both conditions with serious pain until corrected). In the US - wait times are around 20% or less than most countries. For heart disease its a similar difference.

So again... are you talking about quality/effectiveness or simply *perceived quality*? Yup - "correct perspective" is quite important.
 
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Route67

Member
Messages
765
This, for me, is that single sentiment that starts to trigger a strong negative reaction when I hear about employers staying open.

My frustration isn’t with Gibson, or the worker. My frustration is with the system. We have SO MANY individuals and small businesses in this country that are scraping by. So many of us lack the resources to exercise any real resilience to adversity. This virus has exposed the vulnerability of the American worker and small business owner.

A choice between exposure to a potentially deadly virus and starvation is not a choice at all. Any reasonable person can make or at least understand that argument.

This is an imperfect situation with imperfect solutions that will unfortunately lead to some people losing their lives, many people losing their livelihoods, and a whole lot of disruption.

We need to do better by our small businesses and our workers. If the average American had any kind of savings sitting in the bank, weathering social distancing wouldn’t be quite as much of hardship. Instead we immediately transition into full collapse.


It’s unclear to me whether you are using the poor credibility of some journalists to dismiss the Gibson article or the severity of this virus as a whole...but I’m hoping it’s just the Gibson article.

We can agree that not all journalists care about transparency and objectivity. We aren’t going to agree if you are using that criteria to dismiss this virus.
Agree - this virus is exposing the economy to be very ‘soft’ (once again) - little savings overall, still highly leveraged with credit and massive debt.

And I hate to say it, but the cost of health care is dragging the whole economy down - after taking care of an aged parent for five years I can say society and tax payers are making huge sacrifices to support the frail, as they always have.

I haven’t seen a doctor in ten years - it’s time to lighten the load on the health care system and accept death as a natural part of life.

Fear is a disease in itself well worthwhile to overcome.
 

Steadfastly

Member
Messages
2,607
Whether it is Gibson or any other employer forcing people to work in a factory with close contact with others and very loose practices for protection, they are showing a lack of understanding and care for their employees. This may very well kill some of them and/or their family members.
 

teleman1

Silver Supporting Member
Messages
14,953
Agree - this virus is exposing the economy to be very ‘soft’ (once again) - little savings overall, still highly leveraged with credit and massive debt.

And I hate to say it, but the cost of health care is dragging the whole economy down - after taking care of an aged parent for five years I can say society and tax payers are making huge sacrifices to support the frail, as they always have.

I haven’t seen a doctor in ten years - it’s time to lighten the load on the health care system and accept death as a natural part of life.

Fear is a disease in itself well worthwhile to overcome.
WOW!
 

Slapshot1977

Silver Supporting Member
Messages
751
Well Okay then. I was reading that info on the CDC and WHO websites. I believe they were using historical data from past Novel type virus's - who did fade in the summer time due to heat and the lack of humidity.
And we are not in the summer yet.
 

hunter

Silver Supporting Member
Messages
6,779
We have 38k diagnosed cases and 400 deaths. They are saying the amount of actual untested/unconfirmed/asymptomatic cases could be 10 times that. So, lets say 380k total infected. When you consider the amount of actual critical patients and deaths to that number, it's not at all misleading to say most people will be ok and especially younger people with no pre-existing conditions.
A pretty common mid range estimate for our current course is about 60% of the US population will catch the virus. That comes out to 196,200,000 people. Using your 380K infected to 400 deaths. The infection levels can expected to increase by a factor of 516. (196,200,000 / 380K). So multiply the 400 deaths times 516 and you are projecting 206,526 fatalities. That strikes me as a lot of people. And that is based on your numbers. Based on some mortality data, numbers over a million are more likely.
 

Slapshot1977

Silver Supporting Member
Messages
751
Agree - this virus is exposing the economy to be very ‘soft’ (once again) - little savings overall, still highly leveraged with credit and massive debt.

And I hate to say it, but the cost of health care is dragging the whole economy down - after taking care of an aged parent for five years I can say society and tax payers are making huge sacrifices to support the frail, as they always have.

I haven’t seen a doctor in ten years - it’s time to lighten the load on the health care system and accept death as a natural part of life.

Fear is a disease in itself well worthwhile to overcome.
Haven’t seen a doctor in ten years? Hell, you’re part of the problem. You’ll end up going because something is hobbling you and find out that it’s untreatable because it’s too late. Now the taxpayers are paying for a bunch of futile tests and procedures to lengthen your life out by a few painful months. The whole time all you had to do was have normal checkups.
 
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