Guitar playing is so unfair

[LaoTzu]

It gets down to creativity.

Paul McCartney has said he doesn't know how he writes songs.

Creativity involves putting this bit together with that bit and then those bits might go together with this other bit and at the end of it, it's either a pile of crap or it might be something.

How can anyone learn that exactly.

Sure, anyone can learn about some things and the bits etc, but putting it all together is something that can't be taught exactly unless robotic results are desired.

i like the definition from jaque fresco for the defintion of creativity.

"creativity is taking from many different sources and combining them in new ways"

i.e if i combined trap music with reggae. or baby metal with arabian theater music.

so with that in mind the more you know the more you can do and the more combinations you can make.

 

[fenderlead]

i like the definition from jaque fresco for the defintion of creativity.

"creativity is taking from many different sources and combining them in new ways"

i.e if i combined trap music with reggae. or baby metal with arabian theater music.

so with that in mind the more you know the more you can do and the more combinations you can make.

I agree with that, but just say someone combines things in a way that doesn't interest many people, it's very dependent on taste and preference and having a knack for it in a particular way, and it's not what you do but how you do it etc etc.

Paul McCartney could have combined things in a boring bland way for everything he wrote and he has done that but he also did things in a not boring way as well and his ratio is pretty good overall.

 

[Nickstrtcstr]

The deeper you look, the more you find that the differences between people's musical abilities are almost entirely (maybe entirely!) down to how much time they put into learning (and how young they start).

I couldn't disagree more with this. I have seen and heard people that have put in the time and still don't have "it". Then there is this

 

[LaoTzu]

I agree with that, but just say someone combines things in a way that doesn't interest many people, it's very dependent on taste and preference and having a knack for it in a particular way, and it's not what you do but how you do it etc etc.

Paul McCartney could have combined things in a boring bland way for everything he wrote and he has done that but he also did things in a not boring way as well and his ratio is pretty good overall.

in the process of perfecting ones art you shouldnt care if its socially acceptable you have to do it for yourself. as for paul mcartney because he was in the beatles and the massive hype around the phenomenon of beatlemania and has that attention and has the public audience he can do whatever he likes and people will still like him.

its part of being an artist you dont do it to be popular thats just a side benefit if your art is popular then great if its not then too bad, the main thing is you have to enjoy what you create. or whats the point.

 

[Young John]

For me, talent has always meant the gift of being utterly obsessed with something to the point where nothing else matters.
The reason Hendrix always looked like the guitar was another body part is because he never put it down....his obsession (talent) wouldn't allow him to....it's the same with any "talent"....think about it.

 

[JonR]

Well that was better.
Actually I don't disagree with you, and with "work" I meant exactly what you describe as "play". Bad choice of word.

But talent does exist, and when you pair that natural talent with "play", you get those extraordinary guitarists.


Funny thing, years ago I stopped trying so damn hard to become a guitar god, and just started playing for fun. My playing improved almost instantly.

Right!

I still think the belief that "talent does exist" is an article of faith (at least the assumption that it's something a few are born with, and the rest not). Fine if you want to believe that, I'm just more suspicious. I've seen no evidence of it. (And as a teacher of kids, I've seen widely varying levels of ability; I just explain it other ways.)

IMO, "extraordinary" can come simply from "extraordinary" levels of application.

That does leave the question of how those people can manage those extraordinary levels - assuming, hypothetically, they start from the same (innate) level of musicality as the rest of us.
As I've said before, I'm prepared to believe that kind of non-specific personality difference might be inborn: to become the kind of person who can devote so much of their life to one single pursuit, often at the expense of normal things like personal relationships that most people would regard as more important.
Would you starve for your music? Give up on family life? Many of those people would. Nothing comes above music for them.
Is that single-minded obsessiveness inborn? It certainly seems to be common among all extremely successful people in any sphere. They're unusually driven.
IOW, one doesn't need to be gifted in any particular activity. One just needs to be that kind of person - and then one chooses whatever activity one happens to hit upon, that seems fun or interesting. Different upbringings will mean that each person encounters different stimuli, different things that could switch that capacity on, that fires it up.

A hypothesis, as I say. (That kind of personality could still be learned, a result of environmental influence and experiences.)

Anyway, whether inborn or learned, by the time one gets to teenage years, it's all pretty much set in stone. By then, it seems, you've got it or you ain't, regardless of how you got it.
The difference is only that - if we assume "it" is not inborn - then we can learn it later if we want; we can re-awaken the innate musicality we all have, that has just gone rusty from disuse; it just takes longer to get up to speed, once we've learned other ways of behaving.

The point being that - even if we do regard "talent" (wherever it comes from) as fixed before one's teens - it doesn't mean the rest of us (all of us) can't get immense satisfaction from performing music in some way, even as amateurs. "Amateur" comes from the word for "love", and I'm not ashamed to call myself that, even though (technically) I'm now "professional". (I can't believe I earn a living - just about! - from something I enjoy so much. I could earn more from other skills and qualifications I have, but I like it this way. Who wants to "work" for a living? )

I speak as someone who is quite "untalented" in music, but regarded as "talented" in another sphere (drawing). The difference? I was drawing when I was a kid (and never stopped). I didn't start music till I was 16.
I didn't emerge from the womb drawing. My earliest drawings were the same as any kid. But I stuck at it and got more interested in it: I began "looking and copying" more than other kids did. That's what made me good, trying to get it right; and also capable of enjoying the time spent doing that, without getting bored.
Likewise, music is about "listening and copying", trying to get it right - and the earlier you start, the more you enjoy (and can therefore spend more time doing it), the better you will be later.

Just my (lengthy!) $0.02

 

[CactusWren]

I don't know what talent is, but it is true that some people will end up learning a particular thing more quickly than most of us will. How this functions or why, or whether it could have been different under different circumstances, is irrelevant to the fact that it does happen. There are toddlers who play better than most of us ever will. Luckily, unlike pro sports or horse breeding, this is an _art_, which means there is so much more to it than facility or prowess. We are free to develop our art in the direction we desire.

It is best to proceed under the assumption that any musical skill can be acquired, and then find out _how_ to do so. The best guidance is to follow the path of people who have already done it. TAB is rarely that path, it is usually more arduous like picking it out by ear. Ask a lot of questions, realize you don't yet have the answers, and practice/play every spare second. And keep the focus on music.

 

[GLB98]

I desperately need a tab of how that guy played it. I know I can do it, and I even have a tone setup close to how the recording sounds, but I can't figure out what he is playing. I don't know who I have to pay but I really, really, really need a tab of that. I desperately want to play it.

Like JonR said, he's playing about 2 or 3 different licks at most. Do you know that you can slow a youtube video down by 50%? If you aren't able to figure out those 2 licks by watching his very clear video at half speed, then I don't know what to say.

I have to say, between this thread and another, you come across as a real whiner. If indeed your technical level is at all adequate, and if you are really desperate, you would have figured it out already. I don't think you know what desperate is.

 

[CowTipton]

Does anyone else get really depressed and upset when you see someone play something so amazing that you listen to it over and over, but sadly realise it's something you will never be able to do yourself? I personally can't for the life of me understand how some people can improvise a solo on the spot that sounds better than the original recording. Instead of doing this myself, I'm sitting here in awe trying to figure out which notes someone specifically played so that I can replicate it. I'm sitting here imagining how amazing it would be to play something like this to my friends, but I can't even find a tab to start learning this as it is an improvised section that no one else has played. Anyone know that devastating feeling of jealousy?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M78QljuMZ4A&t=6m45s

Just keep practicing.

Yes, it really is that simple.

 

[Neer]

Get over it. Life is about being the best YOU you can be.

Sometimes you have to accept that that which inspires you may not be what you will excel at. Learn the foundations and become your own player.

Regarding the unpopular talent comment above: natural talent (which some are lucky enough to have) is often a trap that lulls potentially great players into not becoming all they can be, and they often never fulfill that potential.

 

[Ben Furman]

Get over it. Life is about being the best YOU you can be. Sometimes you have to accept that that which inspires you may not be what you will excel at. Learn the foundations and become your own player.

Words to live by. Thanks for the reminder!

 

[Calaban]

I desperately need a tab of how that guy played it. I know I can do it, and I even have a tone setup close to how the recording sounds, but I can't figure out what he is playing. I don't know who I have to pay but I really, really, really need a tab of that. I desperately want to play it.

I could tab it out for you in the next 10 minutes, but I'm not going to do that.

If you want to play it that badly, learn it by ear. How? Well...start with a different solo that's easier and work up to it. Start with something short that has lots of long notes. Keep doing things like that and eventually you will train your ear to hear what is going on.

You see, learning by tab is fine...you'll be able to play the solo. But it's kind of like a "paint by numbers" approach; you'll get the correct results but you'll have no idea how or why it works. You need to work your ears in order to truly get inside the music (or have it get inside you).

I'll give you a couple hints though:

-Learn these 5 fingerings of the Major Scale (hint - the solo starts off in the last one!)
-Figure out how to use them in the key of A minor (the info is out there...go find it!)

Good luck....work those ears!

 

[bgmacaw]

Sure, some people learn this faster than others. Don't let that discourage you. Just do what you can do and put some effort and practice time into it. You'll see some results.

I'd recommend two things so far as learning improvisation.

First, play along with a wide variety of jam tracks, preferably good ones. You can find them of varying quality on YouTube and there are a good number of them on Rhapsody you can stream. You can also use some karaoke tracks.

Second, learn your scales and modes and how they weave together all over the neck. There are lessons for this all over YouTube, at Premier Guitar and dozens of other places.

 

[JonR]

I don't know what talent is, but it is true that some people will end up learning a particular thing more quickly than most of us will. How this functions or why, or whether it could have been different under different circumstances, is irrelevant to the fact that it does happen.

I agree. It's only relevant if one tries to argue from that fact about how one should behave as an adult.

There are toddlers who play better than most of us ever will.

Slight exaggeration...

Luckily, unlike pro sports or horse breeding, this is an _art_, which means there is so much more to it than facility or prowess. We are free to develop our art in the direction we desire.

Absolutely.

It is best to proceed under the assumption that any musical skill can be acquired, and then find out _how_ to do so.

Yes!

The best guidance is to follow the path of people who have already done it. TAB is rarely that path, it is usually more arduous like picking it out by ear. Ask a lot of questions, realize you don't yet have the answers, and practice/play every spare second. And keep the focus on music.

Couldn't agree more.
I wouldn't dismiss tab, however. Hungry learners should grab anything they can. The mistake is to rely on it too much. Tab is only what one person thought the other person played (and how they played it); they might be right, they might be wrong.
It also omits a lot of useful information, such as timing. It usually appears as a whole linear string of numbers, not even any barlines - and when there are barlines they can be in the wrong places. Personally, I don't know how any beginner manages to learn from tab alone, even when they know how the piece ought to sound. I like to see notation (as well), or a good representation of metrical structure and timing at least.

 

[Timboguitar]

Covering a song, or replicating a solo note-for-note is one specific activity; engaging specific parts of the musical mind--certain neural pathways.

Creating a new melody, groove, rhythmic pattern, harmonic progression, etc., is an entirely different activity; involving its own set of conditions, approaches, neural pathways, etc.

In my opinion, the reason one learns to cover material written/composed/improvised by others; is to gain insight for one's own creative endeavors.

Once you begin the creative process for yourself, remember that there are no rules, limits, or set in stone procedures that you do not like; or that do not help facilitate your own creativity.

Also, remember that great success is accompanied by great failure. Your doing a phenomenal job if only 1% of you work is great by your own standards. Using a baseball stat as an analogy, a batter who fails 70% of the time is destined for the Hall of Fame.

And almost the moment you start your own creative process, I think you'll begin to sense that you are now in a club (so to speak) of creative individuals-people who both individually and collectively are trying constantly to inspire and facilitate the creative process. A great group to be associated with--without a doubt.

Good luck!!!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[fenderball]

Quote:
Originally Posted by LaoTzu
this is ********....

Feel free to tell me why.

All humans are different, and some just take to certain things better than others. When you combine that with passion and "work" you get the diamonds.

IT'S CERTAINLY AN INTERESTING DISCUSSION...
but, natural talent plays a role, i'm sorry but i believe that...

think about sports....let's just say, to use a name we all know, Michael Jordan was the best dribbler in basketball history ( i know he wasn't, but to use as an example), and he worked at it for sure...well, i would bet anything that if i, or most of you, practiced dribbling 18 hours a day every day for as long as you like, i/we would never dribble the ball as well...just a likely fact...


same with music...there are some who are naturally more talented...and if they put in the work will likely be further along musically than someone who puts in the same effort but is just naturally less talented, musically gifted, whatever...IMHO of course

and the video of the 7 year old drummer, and similar stuff like that, that many of us have seen, kinda demonstrates the natural talent area...

as for me, i just keep doing the best i can, understanding my limitations and trying to make good music when i play and practice...i have accepted the fact i will not be "as good" as for instance, steve morse, and it doesn't matter...there's only one "greatest" anyway, whoever that is, yet if you make music, and it sounds good and you and maybe even others enjoy it, well, isn't that pretty damn good?

 

[coltranemi2012]

Does anyone else get really depressed and upset when you see someone play something so amazing that you listen to it over and over, but sadly realise it's something you will never be able to do yourself? I personally can't for the life of me understand how some people can improvise a solo on the spot that sounds better than the original recording. Instead of doing this myself, I'm sitting here in awe trying to figure out which notes someone specifically played so that I can replicate it. I'm sitting here imagining how amazing it would be to play something like this to my friends, but I can't even find a tab to start learning this as it is an improvised section that no one else has played. Anyone know that devastating feeling of jealousy?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M78QljuMZ4A&t=6m45s[/QUOTE≥]
First of all..to me it's not better than Slash...that dude kinda sounds like a person who can't stop talking....but mainly...worry about you and your thing. Maybe you can't do what he does but you have to do your thing. John McLaughlin can't do what George Benson did but that didn't stop him from doing Bitches Brew and Mahavishnu. Benson couldn't do Mahavishnu but did Breezin. You have to find your own voice. I hate to use this example because it's so cliche...but BB King does BB King so well that people call him the greatest guitarists. He's not worrying about doing what Allan Holdworth...Allan couldn't do what BB did...not really. Different genres right? Well, Allan couldn't EVH and EVH couldn't do Allan...not really. Dig?

 

[Jerrod]

Unfair? Boo hoo. Who promised fair?

As posted previously, enjoy the walking.

 

[arthur rotfeld]

I couldn't disagree more with this. I have seen and heard people that have put in the time and still don't have "it". Then there is this

I love that!!!!!!!!!!!!


I teach a lot, and firmly believe anyone can play guitar, just like anyone can drive, type, play golf, swim, what have you. Put the time in!

That said, we aren't all dealt the same hand and many are going to have a tougher time than others. For many the uppermost reaches of the skill set will never happen.

 

[Otto Tune]

Does anyone else get really depressed and upset when you see someone play something so amazing that you listen to it over and over, but sadly realise it's something you will never be able to do yourself?

Yes.
It's also true about playing in the NFL, being a movie star, driving in the Indy 500, and dating a supermodel.

Life isn't fair. But I plod along. What choice do we have?