Guitar Rig's Cabs setup, help wanted

Discussion in 'Recording/Live Sound' started by Affair2k, Oct 2, 2004.


  1. Affair2k

    Affair2k Member

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    Hi all, i'm gonna start to record my songs next week and i would like to have a good sound for my guitar.
    I just bought a new amp, an Engl screamer 50 combo that i'm running through a palmer pga-04 in order to mute the amp and get the signal to the mixer.

    Now all i have to do is put guitar rig as an insert and start recording, but im not very good as a sound engineer and when i try a few cab emulations i feel very lost, i just dont know which one is sounding better.

    Right now im working with this cab sim:
    4x12 UK 60s
    size +18%
    Microphone position: Off axis
    Mic: Dinamic 57
    Almost no air

    I think it sounds fine, but maybe some of you found a better sounding setup or even a combination of cabs that works well.

    This is a little test i made just to show you how it sounds right now: http://www.digitalsoundplanet.com/Members/000146569_000021964.mp3

    Please, give me some feedback, maybe it sounds ok as it is right now or i should improve it somehow.
    And if you can...post your guitar rig cab settings :p

    Ah, i almost forgot about it, sorry for my english :)

    Thanks in advance
     
  2. Unburst

    Unburst Member

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    That cab sim should work ok for the sound you're going for.
    Your clip sounds a little weird though, I can hear some pulsing inteference typ sound in the longer notes, Are you running the Palmer as a speaker sim too or just a load box?

    Try the Orange cab, miked off axis with the 421 (next one up from the 57)
     
  3. Affair2k

    Affair2k Member

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    Thanks for the tip, im gonna try it right now, i just need to play it live and make some A/B comparations.

    Im running the palmer only as a load box, it sounds ok, but not as good as i thought, anyway i have room for it in my setup, i will use it in live situations and as a load box/direct injection.
     
  4. jzucker

    jzucker Supporting Member

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    Hi,

    I'm struggling with the same thing. Your clip sounds boxy which is the problem I'm having too. Here's an example I did with the guitar sim and direct recording from a SS preamp and a distortion box. It's also boxy sounding.

    I've heard several great clips from other folks so I think there's hope but Martin sent me one of his presets and while it sounded unbelievably good on his clip, it sounded awful on my setup so I think there are other variables...

    http://www.sheetsofsound.net/audio/mp3/jzjam_3.mp3
     
  5. Affair2k

    Affair2k Member

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    Jack, i think you are closer than i :/
    I dont know what other variables can affect the sound in a so drastic way.

    Right now my setup is:

    Speaker out to palmer pga-04, full range sound( no speaker simulator from palmer at all) to digital mixer and directly to guitar rig.

    Anyway martin's idea (orange cab with condenser mic) sounds better than my previous setup, but i have heard better sounds from some people with guitar rig's cab simulators.

    I am even thinking in returning my amp (bought it 5 days ago) and buy a carvin legacy, but i dont want to spend more money and still have the same results.

    Keep me informed about your results.


    As always, sorry for my english :p
     
  6. Unburst

    Unburst Member

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    Jack-sorry that preset didn't work out for you, it was tweaked to work for the particular guitar/conditions I was working with i.e. a Tele direct into a cheap iMic interface.
    This is not the "correct" way to run a guitar direct since it's running into a low imedance input and so sounds a lot darker than normal, which is not a bad thing if you want a smooth tone from a Tele.

    If I use the same settings but run into a DI box or even a bypassed pedal it sounds totally different (a lot brighter)

    That clip sounds pretty good considering it's a SS preamp and pedal.
     
  7. Unburst

    Unburst Member

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    I found that oversizing the cab sounds weird/phasey, I tend to undersize them by around 10-11%, it gives more body to the sounds and gets rid of some of the boxiness.
     
  8. jzucker

    jzucker Supporting Member

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    Thanks Martin. I think with some tweaking, that could be a very nice sound. Perhaps some EQ within guitar rig. Apparently, they're releasing the 1.1.2 version shortly. Not sure if it'll be just bug fixes or some new functionality. I'm working with their artist's relations department. I told them they should add more speaker sims and perhaps a dumble pedal or amp model...
     
  9. Ed DeGenaro

    Ed DeGenaro Supporting Member

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    Jack, as a rule version x.x2 or such is usually bug fixes etc...

    They don't need more cab sims, and they certainly don't need a Dumble in there. For that a pedal into the Twin should do just fine.
    You move from piece of gear to piece of gear at an alarming rate for a player of your level. I said this before, maybe you need to spend much more time tweaking.
    Look capturing a tone is not rocket surgery, just crank the amp and let it hiss big time. Put on head phones and find the spot that's the most hissy to the mic.
    Hell, I don't even do that I toss a mic there twiddle some knobs and go...
    Here's a no effort, no eq on the board quickie clip with a Hot Plate set to -16dB bright off...
    http://www.eddegenaro.com/audio/clip33.mp3

    You should be able to do better with your high end gear in a second.
     
  10. jzucker

    jzucker Supporting Member

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    I thought the gear just played itself?!? :D

    Your clip sounds wonderful. What do you mean by finding a spot that sounds hissy to the mic?

    And is your amp isolated in a different room from where you're located?
     
  11. Bassomatic

    Bassomatic Silver Supporting Member

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    Has to do with finding a sweet spot for brightness, I believe. Interesting approach.

    Either that, or have your kid move the mic around while you play and listen in cans.
     
  12. Ed DeGenaro

    Ed DeGenaro Supporting Member

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    When I want to find the spot where I get the most mileage out of I crank the gain on the amp so it hisses like crazy, then I put on head phones and move the mic until I find the spot where the hiss is the loudest. Done

    I got everything in the same room.
     
  13. Affair2k

    Affair2k Member

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    Can i have some input in this tone please?

    http://www.digitalsoundplanet.com/Members/000146569_000022004.mp3

    Please, dont listen to the playing, only the tone, i recorded this tune without headphones, so i was listening the song and the amp very loud(the amp was louder, so i could not hear the song very well) i was just testing mic placements

    Today i tried to mic the amp with a rode ntk 1 condenser mic, i dont like how the sm57 sounds, with this condenser mic i think the sound is smoother.

    Any tips please? is the sound too harsh? do i need to add more bass, treble etc??? do you think this sound is more natural?

    I give up with guitar rig, i just cant make it sound natural, sometimes i think i have the sound, but after resting some time i find that the sound is horrible, not really usable in a comertial recording for example.

    Thanks all in advance
     
  14. jzucker

    jzucker Supporting Member

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    I don't like the tone on the lead solo. It's too buzzy and has some weird high-freq stuff going on which makes it buzzy.

    If you listen to Martin's or DeGenaro's clips, you'll hear that it's possible to make it sound natural.

    When I was referring to other variables, I was thinking that the preamp, audio interface and other stuff factor into the guitar rig stuff.
     
  15. Affair2k

    Affair2k Member

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    I am having lots of problems with mics :(
    I tried to record with a sm-57 but it doesnt sound natural, and of course thats not the sound of my amp, i tried with the rode ntk1 condenser mic and the best i could get was the sound of the clip above, i have tried in every position i could think but i cant get a good sound :(

    Dont know what is happening, i never had this problems before, i thought it was my mic that was wrong but now i have a new sm 57 and still cant get a decent sound.

    Anyone can give me some synth lessons? at last they are easy to record!!
     
  16. jzucker

    jzucker Supporting Member

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    I'm having similar problems. Several folks have said that SM57s are inconsistent. Scott Lerner who gets great recordings with an SM57 says he has 2 and one sucks and the other sounds great so maybe it's worth trying a different one. Somewhere, I have a 2nd one too which I may try.

    I've also heard that the Blue 8 ball mic which is around $99 is a better guitar cab than a '57 due to a flatter freq response.
     
  17. Ed DeGenaro

    Ed DeGenaro Supporting Member

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    here's my rule of thumb...57 and a V30...anybody ought to get a good tone. Merely a matter of dialing the amp to the mic and not the room.
     
  18. Affair2k

    Affair2k Member

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    Ed, my amp comes with a celestion G12, is that the problem? is the speaker too treble?

    Do you think that replacing the speaker with for example a celestion vintage i could dial a better sound?

    I find the amp sounds ok, i really like the sound i am listening, but when i place the mic close to the grill, near the center, some off axis moving it to find a good sound bla, bla bla... the sound is not good.
    If i cut down the treble or presence it does not work, the sound is darker but not nice.

    Thanks in advance for helping
     
  19. Unburst

    Unburst Member

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    Bingo!

    This is the single most important thing to recording guitar imo, getting a good amp sound in a room and trying to capture that tone to tape is a recipe for disappointment.
    You can't capture what your ears are hearing in a room with a tiny mic capsule.

    These days when I mic a cab I don't even listen to the amp in the room, I set it roughly where I want it to be then I go and check it through the monitors.
    Then I decide how to tweak it or if the mic needs to be moved (actually I never need to do this since I marked the sweet spot on my fave cab with grease pencil, it takes me longer to tune up than get a tone now)

    When I used to set the amp in the room then mic it up, it would sound like affair2k's last clip, thin and fuzzy.

    Affair2k-the '57 is a good mic for rock but the placement is critical, you need to spend some time finding the best mic position for your tone.
    I used to hate '57's until I did this, it was time well spent and now I use a '57 99% of the time.

    As far as Guitar Rig, it's a good system and you can get great results (best I've heard from a modeler) but you need to learn how to use it.
    The way the amps/cabs/mics interact is not always natural, I've learned to go with the flow and just use what works, even if it's not what I would do in real life, e.g. micing a 4x12 with a U87.
     
  20. Ed DeGenaro

    Ed DeGenaro Supporting Member

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    Unburst summed up pertty nicwly.
    But to reiterate. What it sounds in the room to your ears is unimportant. Unless you have a great sounding room miking that tone will be a pain in the ass. And what are you gonna do when you step on stage and the sound guy tosses a 57 in front of your cab?
    As for the speaker, I don't like what V30s sound like in the room whatsoever. However close miked with a 57 I can sleepwalk with that speaker.
     

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