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Discussion in 'Amps and Cabs' started by suckamc, May 6, 2009.
How many hours did you give the speakers before deciding they didn't sound very good?
The G12C speaker is essentially a Reissue Greenback in that is uses the same cone ass'y (53H1777) but there is no sticky doping on the surround like the the Heritage G12M 20 and Heritage G12H 30.
G12C has it's own T # which I can't recall at this exact moment.
I was one of the first to offer a Marshall reproduction 4 X 12. Mojo did the original versions for me. This was prior to them offering any Marshall style cabinet in their catalog. They had the source for original BW material and being local to me were an easy choice to build the cabs, plus I had worked for them in 2001.
There were a few details that were not dialed in completely and I went to an independant cab builder over 4 years ago who listened intently and copied both my 68 slant and straight front cabs to a tee. Never offered the caster cups on any of these because at the time no one had the nice repro metal cups.
We have been building the cabs from 5/8" Baltic Birch for several years now with Baltic birch baffle and back panel.
My cabs now use the strip of wood across the base of the baffle as was done in 68. Jim's cab shows the triangular pieces of wood in the corners of the baffle as was done in 69. To me his support post is not exact to the originals (Sorry Jim!) But I'm sure he will correct this (Smile)!
Personally I would like to see some accurate repro handles. I have a fab shop here willing to replicate but the cost for small runs does not make it justifiable. I have always been of the impression that folks would prefer a well built cab of correct materials and would be OK with current production stamped handles.
Another fine point is I have always mounted handles with T-nuts and machine screws and uses stainless steel hardward. A detail overlooked by the majority of woodshops building 4 X 12s.
In regard to wood, many woodshops now will use a plywood that is Birch on the outside veneer but inside layers are poplar. These cabs will sound completely different than one built from full Baltic Birch.
Another aspect to consider is joinery. Original 4 X 12's were always fingerjointed. Dovetail joints are also very solid. Some companies will lower cost by using a rabbet/dado joint. While this is less labor intensive it does not offer the solid joinery that you get from a finger joint or dovetail joint.
Speakers are the BIG picture and to my ear the Heritage G12H falls pretty short of an original Pre-Rola 102 014 Bass cone G12H. Regarding the question how long does it really take to break-in the Heritage G12H I can't honestly say but I would guess that at least 9 months of hard playing before you begin to percieve a difference. I'm still asking why the Heritage G12M and G12H have no sticky doping on the speaker surrounds while the originals did!
If you ever play the real deal it will alter your mindset of speakers considerably. Those who have them know what I mean.
In continued education to all,
Greg, hey buddy! The 69 baffle board design is different from the 68. This is the strip of wood behind the baffle board that came in 68/early 69.
When I restored the early 69 slant cab above, there were some issues with the one I had. Namely the board had worked itself loose over the years, and there were only two screws holding it in, the other two had stripped. When I compared the later 69 cab specs, I felt the push-in caster sockets mounted/pounded into the triangular pieces of the lower back of the baffleboard were a more solid way of anchoring the baffle to the cab, so that's what I decided on...and since I patterned this after the 69 1982B cab, that's what I replicated.
I'll be doing the 68 Slant recreation next, and I'll take a good look at the baffle support setup on that with the strip behind the baffle board, and have two cabs built to compare the differences in tone (if any) between the 68 and later 69 baffle board mounting setup.
Here's a pic of a 68 slant baffle.
As for repro metal handles, I'll have a solution for that shortly. I already met with a company to recreate them, although there will be slight differences. There won't be the welded back plates on them, they'll be one deep drawn piece. The welded handles can allow air to leak and I'm trying to eliminate that factor. They will have the chrome handle grab bar, and the correct six hole design spacing. They will be a direct fit replacement for the hole cut in Marshall cabs, but new screw holes, which I recommend 10/32 machine screws and T-nuts to mount with, will have to be drilled using a 1/4 or 5/16 drill (depends on your T-nut supplier).
Of course, the metal handle will be much more solid, without the cracking/breaking of the standard plastic handles on most Marshall cabs since 1970, and that will eliminate the vibration/noise issues with the riveted in handles Marshall has used for the last 38 years.
I'm having a bid given to me for the metal caster cups as well. I'm looking to recreate the 69 look pretty closely, with logical enhancements that make sense with regard to handles, etc.
As for the sound post, yeah, I'll get that corrected. The prototype I linked pics to has had some minor refinements since it showed up, the sound post being one of them.
It is a good time to be buying cabs. Vintageheadbox will be having reproduction pinstripe cloth and stamped and welded steel and chrome handles in a very short time. They already use 100% Baltic birch 3/8" finger joints.
I have owned originals and modern Marshall cabs and the HW are faithful reproductions constructionally .So as I said before list the differences.
I believe he did.
Hmm, well, how about if I post pics?
Handwired baffle (slant cab):
Real 68/69 slant baffle:
I've seen this anomaly in three HW cabs, now. Looks like the wood inside the 5/8" birch frame isn't being sanded level, or fitted & leveled, leaving a noticeable ridge in the tolex just inside the front edges in these cabs. You can see it in these three pics below.
Apparently the standard plastic caster base type casters are being used. yngwie308 said one of his casters only had one screw out of the four it's supposed to have in it. Apparently it broke on him while moving the cab.
The speaker tone is all subjective to your tone needs, of course, but the wiring is different, too.
Not owning a Handwired cab, this is all I can list from the pics supplied by others, but it's more than just one difference. They look fairly close from the outside, but the internal builds are quite different, as the pics show. The old cabs have way more support wood & bracing for the baffle board and caster mounting.
I'll leave the comparisons technically to experts like Jim, I didn't think I would live long enough for the Heritage G12H's to break in...
The vinyl is thinner on the HW, the gold piping is different, as is the S&P grille cloth, ect.,ect... Internally the differences are obvious as Jim has pointed out, if you are happy with your HW, Godbless, it just isn't a real Marshall cabinet, with real Celestions, to vintage specs, and I believe I am not the only person to have said this. The only reason I didn't get rid of my 1959HW head as well, was that it has been worked on my ace Metro founder George Metropoulos and I think the amp needs better speakers.
Here are some shots of the HW cabs before I shipped them out!!
The cabs just feel different as well, when you move them, they are Marshall lite..
That cab at the top is not like the one I took apart ,That is just a modern cab with metal handles.
The one I took apart had brass caster cups and the vertical support as the original. It looks like they have started to just use the Vintage reissue with different speakers and metal handles, disappointing.
These were my 1969 Marshall cabs I had back in Pennsylvania, sold them in 1996, they were 1982A & B cabs from Music Ground.
Here is a Park early seventies stack:
Here are some more shots of the HW cabs:
Mine were fairly early production, ordered in 2005..
Bigger shots of the Park:
Can you guys describe the differences in sound between these? I'm assuming there's alot more to it than just being "vintage correct"...?
(Altho I understand casters falling apart would suck)
One thing to think about too is, over here in the UK I paid about £450 for my handwired cab. If they are $1200 on your side of the pond I can see why your bothered about gold piping and correct thickness of tolex. Yes the casters are ****, mine fell apart but I just replaced them. I bought this cab to gig with not to look at in my front room and take photos of. If you could buy a germino cab over here in the UK i may try one out but I'd be surprised if anyone could compete with Marshalls prices over here.
Has anyone else here given these speakers serious gig time? I must admit I replaced 2 with heritage g12m-20's and it sound even better to me now.
Why do you say that, I didn't buy these cabs to just take photos of them, they are absolute rubbish and I didn't pay 450 pounds for mine..
I am sort of sorry I got involved in this, I am just relating my story..
Most of Marshalls vintage amps and cabs are in Europe and the US, not England anymore!
Where are the scumback made 4-12's available at? no info on the website? Anyone want to PM me? Jim?
I was just making my point that over here they are priced extremly well, you would have a hard time convincing people to pay over a grand for a boutique clone when the Marshall one's are damn good and cheap.
Im sorry you didn't like the ones that you had, the one I have sounds awesome and is very well made apart from the casters which I just replaced with heavy duty ones anyway.
I was just trying to find out if anyone else had gigged them for a few hundred hours to see what they thought of the tone after that time.
Directly from Jim.
Sorry, I'm out of town for family business (my Mom's estate) in Austin, TX.
I haven't had time to put them on the website yet, as I needed to get my webguy involved in that, but they'll be up there in about two weeks. I just have the announcement thread in the Manufacturer's Emporium (or whatever) for right now.