• The Gear Page Apparel & Merch Shop is Open!

    Based on member demand, The Gear Page is pleased to announce that our Apparel Merch Shop is now open. The shop’s link is in the blue Navigation bar (on the right side), “Shop,” with t-shirts, hats, neck buffs, and stickers to start. Here’s the direct link: www.thegearpageshop.com

    You’ll find exclusive high-quality apparel and merchandise; all items are ethical, sustainably produced, and we will be continuously sourcing and adding new choices. 

    We can ship internationally. All shipping is at cost.


Has modelling really cracked the elusive edge-of-break-up tones yet?

JDthaddeus

no-skill zero-talent guitarist and eternal student
Silver Supporting Member
Messages
239
My first experience with that was playing a gig in high school and watching the video after. I mic’d my own amp and dialed it in at the board because we brought the PA. I thought I was the man because I was playing through a new Carvin Legacy stack I had just bought.....but what I heard on that playback was NOTHING like what I heard coming out of the amp. I had a 57 straight on the cone....and it was BAD.

I spent the next month with a Tascam 4-track, putting the mic in different spots and learning how angling it cut frequencies....but it still wasn’t until years later that I finally got to a point where I was confident in mic’ing a cab. Had to create a lot of horrible tones to get there!
You should start a thread with some tips. I just bought my first sm57 mic so I have a lot to learn.
 

JDthaddeus

no-skill zero-talent guitarist and eternal student
Silver Supporting Member
Messages
239
After reading all of this thread I am totally baffled as to how I even gigged back in the day with my solid state Fender amp with a 10 inch stock speaker. We played Country, Blues, Rock and everything in between that was popular at the time.
Maybe it was just a dream, cause now one seems to need a whole arsenal of amps, modelers and pedals just to achieve one elusive tone.:bonk
For real. I gigged and recorded for ten years with a SS amp and two pedals. In fact I played an auditorium once with a small crappy practice amp, like a Gorilla or a little Peavey, (due to the fact that we were banned from playing until the last minute so I had to play with what I had). We got standing ovations and the crowd brought down the house beating on the chairs and cheering. When the curtain closed I could feel the thundering applause shake the stage. Go figure?
 
Last edited:

DS007

Member
Messages
772
Ive sadly never played a fractal. Theres none around to try and i have a few high end tubes amps so its not worth 3k for me. But i got a hx stomp 6 months ago since my son is 1 and a half and sleep alot and my wife does not like 100w amps on 10 hours a day. so i can play quitely now when i cant crank my babies. And honestly i barely used it this whole time. Even after weeks of making custom presets and even buying the highest rated ones. Wow it was a let down. BUT the new update last week, holy crap man! it went from pretty crappy in my opinion for anything but high gain or cleans. To now its honestly amazing once you dial it in. I made a matchless profile with some good IRs and good lord. It actually sounds super close to my real amps. It honestly makes me kind of mad cause im A TUBE SNOB lmao i build them and buy them and loveee the old tech. something about it excites me, so i dont want to admit some tiny little black box can compete with my 4k amps with 1k cabs.

But finally, it does. Its not exactly the same, but no one will ever know the difference. its just too good now. I know fractal is leagues above line 6. So if the stomp is this good, i REALLY want to get my hands on an axe fx, maybe a kemper or QC when its out.
Not true. Blind tests will prove this all day long. Some prefer their modeling for sure, but that doesn't mean they are leagues apart, it's simply subjective at this point.
 

LaXu

Member
Messages
7,248
I know fractal is leagues above line 6. So if the stomp is this good, i REALLY want to get my hands on an axe fx, maybe a kemper or QC when its out.
It isn’t. Each unit has their pros and cons and some models they do better but you can dial them to sound and feel very similar when using the same 3rd party IRs. Fractal has better reverbs and stock cabs but the amp modeling does not sound all that different, it’s just a lot more tweakable and there’s an abundance of amp models. I like Helix overdrive pedal models a lot more than Fractal’s (even with the updated algorithms).

I own both a Helix Floor and Fractal FM3.
 

MikeyG

Silver Supporting Member
Messages
12,087
As a worship leader, I live in the world of edge of breakup.

I used to own an Amplifire and while I loved it, if memory serves me correctly, the only real edge of breakup amps it had were the Voxes and a Bassman (although I bet you could dial the Cornford or Dumble that direction).

With modern worship music, edge of breakup lives in the Vox styled amp world. With that said, while I love Vox amps, they seem to sound thin to me when mic'd let alone modelled.

The Fractal Audio stuff (my main rig is an FM3) has these edge of breakup amps (and this list is just in the Vox style category):
- Morgan AC20
- Matchless DC30
- Matchless Chieftain
- Trainwreck Rocket
- Ruby
- Comet (I forget which one is Vox like)
- Vox AC30
- Vox AC15

All of these models will do edge of breakup very well. My personal favorite is the Chieftain, followed by the AC20, FWIW. I couldn't be happier with EOB tones in the Fractal.

And this doesn't even scratch the surface with other non-Vox like EOB amps in the Fractal like Dr Z, Suhr Badgers, various Fender Tweeds and the Deluxe Reverb, amongst many many others........
Is the Chieftain a Vox circuit? Sounds more Fendery to me, and it runs 2 EL34s. But it does have a nice edge of breakup tone.
 

Aquinas

Silver Supporting Member
Messages
1,626
Is the Chieftain a Vox circuit? Sounds more Fendery to me, and it runs 2 EL34s. But it does have a nice edge of breakup tone.
Chieftain is closer to a Fender than a Vox, but has characteristics of both. Fender-like tone stack and reverb, hybrid output.

DC30 is very Vox, but much stiffer power supply and OT. Top Boost on one side, AC15-style EF86 on the other but with a bass cut on a click.

Clubman is the weirdo.
 

Doutorfunga

Member
Messages
67
Rolling the volume down isn’t the measure for me.

A great amp will go from clean to ballsy simply with variation in how your pick/finger is hitting the string.

I like and use modelers and plugins, but I’ve never come across one that accurately simulates the differences a good, simple tube amp gives through varying pick/finger attack.

To be honest, generally most more complicated tube amps lose this as well, so there’s that.
Believe it or not, I seem to get some of those differences in modelers when set to emulate some of those simple amps (by simple, I understood you meant Class A amps like a Champ, sorry in advance if not the case). In any case, it is one thing to go from clean to a 5e3 mean; a Recto will not go from its clean to its meanest through touch alone. The GOOD modelers today are at least bridging the gap in regards to those variations in tone we get from simple tubes (I own an Acedo Audio 276, basically a Champ with a EL84 power tube, so I know and love those too!). As for a Recto that goes from clean to meltdown, now THAT would be an interesting direction for digital, exactly because it can't really be done with tubes. If I'm not mistaken, the Litigator amp in the Line 6 Helix does something of the sort
 

Doutorfunga

Member
Messages
67
For real. I gigged and recorded for ten years with a SS amp and two pedals. In fact I played an auditorium once with a small crappy practice amp, like a Gorilla or a little Peavey, (due to the fact that we were banned from playing until the last minute so I had to play with what I had). We got standing ovations and the crowd brought down the house beating on the chairs and cheering. When the curtain closed I could feel the thundering applause shake the stage. Go figure?
Do you remember the setlist, perchance? Bound to be quite a few good songs in there :)
 

GT100

Member
Messages
3,901
Believe it or not, I seem to get some of those differences in modelers when set to emulate some of those simple amps (by simple, I understood you meant Class A amps like a Champ, sorry in advance if not the case). In any case, it is one thing to go from clean to a 5e3 mean; a Recto will not go from its clean to its meanest through touch alone. The GOOD modelers today are at least bridging the gap in regards to those variations in tone we get from simple tubes (I own an Acedo Audio 276, basically a Champ with a EL84 power tube, so I know and love those too!). As for a Recto that goes from clean to meltdown, now THAT would be an interesting direction for digital, exactly because it can't really be done with tubes. If I'm not mistaken, the Litigator amp in the Line 6 Helix does something of the sort
I would think you would want to control it via an expression pedal.
So depending on what you are doing at the moment you could adjust the sensitivity of this effect.
 

JDthaddeus

no-skill zero-talent guitarist and eternal student
Silver Supporting Member
Messages
239
Do you remember the setlist, perchance? Bound to be quite a few good songs in there :)
My first band, almost entirely Metallica covers I'm afraid. For Whom the Bell Tolls, Harvester of Sorrows, One. In hindsight, I was so fearless as well as stupid, I don't know how that possibly sounded good.

Most people would say that a 12 watt amp can't handle a drum set, but I put my amp at the very front edge of the stage, bassist and other guitarist amps in the rear next to the drums. We made it work. I probably sounded terrible and the crowd was easy.

My friend said he has one of our gigs recorded on a VHS tape (yikes!). You've reminded me, I need to track that down.
 
Last edited:

Not Orange

Gold Supporting Member
Messages
2,264
I spent the next month with a Tascam 4-track, putting the mic in different spots and learning how angling it cut frequencies....but it still wasn’t until years later that I finally got to a point where I was confident in mic’ing a cab. Had to create a lot of horrible tones to get there!

It really does take a lot hands on experience to get mic'ing an amp right. I still struggle at times.
 

Maguchi

Member
Messages
481
Hello, can someone advise me here .. for 5 years or so I have been using Atomic Amplifire 12, and wondering if I should replace it with a more modern unit. I generally operate in clean to classic rock region, and by and large AF12 delivers that, except for the crucial edge of break-up where IMO the tones are thin .. and when I revert to my Mesa and play the same clean tones the room fills with heavenly tones, add a BB preamp and the tone fills out even more, without any fizz.. pure cream.

I tried Kemper Stage 2 years ago and of course it was a major improvement in many areas on the AF12 but again IMO it lacked the love in clean and edge-of-break-up tones, and I sold it, reverted to my valve amps where clean mattered, and or AF12 for all else.

2 years on and all the hoo-har about Quad Cortex I’m fidgeting again. I ordered a Cortex, and like so many waiting ... and waiting ... and .. but fear that I will again be unimpressed by it‘s ability to deliver full and rich clean and clipped tones.

Has anyone else been on my journey and can advise me? Have clean and edge-of-break-up tones really got much better since that red kidney bean of 1999, or should I cancel my order and buy another lovely valve amp?
No way Ray! Get a tube amp...or four.
 

deathbyguitar

Member
Messages
183
I have nine in the same room as my Helix.

I still use the Helix more.

I'm not the only one.
Off topic, but I think I recognize your name from the Fryette GP/DI videos where Steve pronounces your name "Shafer" and you correct him by pointing out that you have hair :p

Unless that was a different Paul Scheiffer.
 

Aquinas

Silver Supporting Member
Messages
1,626
Off topic, but I think I recognize your name from the Fryette GP/DI videos where Steve pronounces your name "Shafer" and you correct him by pointing out that you have hair :p

Unless that was a different Paul Scheiffer.
Nope, that is me!

I have both more and less hair now.

And it is Schieffer. Pronounced Sheee-fur.
 

deathbyguitar

Member
Messages
183
And it is Schieffer. Pronounced Sheee-fur.
Yeah, I remember. That GP/DI looked really damn cool although it would probably be superfluous since I have an Axe-FX III. I'll probably buy one someday for the hell of it, assuming they're even still made. But for now, digital reigns supreme! :cool:
 

Aquinas

Silver Supporting Member
Messages
1,626
Yeah, I remember. That GP/DI looked really damn cool although it would probably be superfluous since I have an Axe-FX III. I'll probably buy one someday for the hell of it, assuming they're even still made. But for now, digital reigns supreme! :cool:
They are still made. It is a cool thing - though I mostly use mine as a bass DI these days!

If i had the freedom to chose between playing with a produced sound or the amp in the room at home it would be the last option all day.
You say that because you don't have that option. I'm not in the same position as a lot of other people on this board - for a long time (though not lately), this was my profession. I use the tools that work for the situation, and don't care nearly as much about the dreaming [anymore, anyway].

In any case, I usually play the Helix through a PC+ or my PS2 and a cab, so "amp in the room". Digital and AITR are not exclusive of each other!

Have you ever tried something like the UA OX box for example, great piece of gear for playing these 9 amps at home at reasonably volume levels both produced or as amp in the room. For every problem there are many solutions available these days so don't pull the convenience card next.
I have. I have several load boxes, in fact. I dislike UAD for several reasons, but I did borrow an OX and give it a good run-through at one point. I prefer my regular loads and my own cab solutions. I do use them, and relatively often.

I don't see any of these things as mutually exclusive. That is the point. They are tools for me, and they are paid for...

You like to play with the Helix over your tube amps, maybe time to sell some amps or is it just cool to talk about gear instead of actually using them?
No, I'm not going to sell my amps just because I don't use them as often as I used to. Why should I? I don't need to. I still enjoy them. Why would I sell them?

This seems to be a major difference in philosophy, and one that seriously colors your opinions.

If you believe that you need to sell everything you aren't always using all the time, then you're going to be pretty unhappy in my experience. I get limited funds, but that isn't really what you are talking about!

All I can see in that statement is jealousy and "grass-is-greener-syndrome". You can't afford a bunch of amps (that took me 20 years to acquire), so you think it is a waste. Well boo-hoo. It is my prerogative - and I am by no means anywhere near as bad as a lot of people at GAS!

I have currently one pre- and power amp with a cab, a pedalboard and the OX at home and that's more then enough for me. But its cool to know I'm all alone these days by using real amps at home LOL.
No, you're not "all alone". You're just in a different situation with different opinions and different (I'd say silly) reasons for having them.

I use the Helix because it makes me happy when playing for myself, which is all I'm doing these days. I use it on projects when it fits. If I were doing sessions, I'd use the tube amps when they fit, too. I do turn them on occasionally for fun, and because my Ampegs and Fryettes are pretty different than anything in the Helix (or my other stuff)...

And if you saw my pedal closet, you'd probably go apoplectic! Some of those haven't gotten pulled out in over a year. I still want to have them, though, for that one time I need them...
 
Messages
1,974
Had to think before i respond so i gave you some music to breath...

Money is not the reason i don't own many amps, isn't that why most players buy an amp modeler. Less gear is less things to worry about, thats my philosophy. Gear i don't use i sell so others may enjoy it instead of collecting dust and filling the space without a purpose. You said they are tools and i agree so why be so sentimental over this subject.

The grass is greener mentality, i would say you seem to suffer from a big ego syndrome. Amp modeling is all fine with me, i don't have much use for them, I've tried but find many other tools suits me and my music better. Understand that my pre and power amp alone costs more then your Helix or the new QC for example. I use the OX for the hybrid solution and that works for me, so no reason for me to be jealous about amp modeling users as i made my own decisions that suit me.

Make yourself!
Right, some of us may be, when pushed, sitting a trifle high on our horse. However, I would contend, as a player of many years, and an accidental professional musician for most of those, that modellers are "there" now.

My amp collection includes the best 2204 I have ever heard. I have Fenders, Boogies, and my guitar monitoring of choice atm, which is a Helix into a custom rebuilt by Jon Dickinson 45wt 6L6 powered upright 2x12" without a tonestack; it is super-clean but even so. So my rig is Hybrid with a capital H. And I haven't powered up my other amps in ages. And direct into a desk I'm getting pretty stunning tones too.

Go and take one of the good YouTube A/B amp/modeller comparisons without cheating. Once you get your monitoring sorted, modellers are every bit as good, and a damn sight more versatile than the real thing. And they have a significantly lower noise floor. And most of the FX you will ever need.

There's a reason why professionals all seem to have gone digital. Digital is so good now that as a professional it's almost impossible not to switch without becoming as relevant as a dinosaur after the KT boundary event.
 




Trending Topics

Top