Heard a clip of my FOH sound, meh.

Stokely

Member
Messages
1,927
Recorded on what, might I ask? Typically with our band we see posts from friends with cell phone vids...those will always sound iffy, and aren't at all what the band actually sounded like. You can record from a lot of mixers, multitrack even, but that also isn't necessarily what was heard by people there.

I've gotten halfway decent recordings with my Zoom H2 at gigs and practice, but even that sounds "flat" (not tuning wise, hard to explain) and off.
 

HoboMan

Gold Supporting Member
Messages
18,940
Keep in mind if you're mic'd the sound guy has the final say so on a lot of your guitar tone. If the sound guy's hearing is shot there's a chance he added treble at the board to make up for his loss of being able to hear high frequencies very well.
 

Cosmo-D

Silver Supporting Member
Messages
10,265
Get to know where the sweet spot is on your rig and cab, using the common mics you encounter (57, 609, etc) and either mark the grill or just remember the general area, making sure they (or you) place it there. For me, I know where the dust cap meets the cone is my general sweet spot and then I adjust accordingly.
 

Gasp100

Silver Supporting Member
Messages
26,010
When we provide our own sound I use a Friedman mic no mo. On all of my amps I have a second 8ohm tap that I can use so I don't even have to put the mic no mo "inline". It does not have a load, just XLR out with the "off axis" setting which routes to FOH mixer.
I have a Suhr reactive load at home so I can load down my amps completely silent, then test the mic no mo into FRFR (Yamaha DXR10) and fact check.
As a backup I have a Strymon Iridium on my pedalboard and can always route that to FOH mixer instead, but I'm really digging the Friedman ($99!).
For gigs with sound guy I let them use whatever they want, usually an e906.
I have one of those cool portable amp stands which gives a nice angle for me but not super drastic so that I can monitor perfectly and no major beaming to audience.
https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/AMP150--ultimate-support-amp-150-amp-stand
The only situation I could see where a modeler alone is the best choice is if you have no backline and FOH is doing 100%.
I like amps (and real pedals).
 

RockManDan

Member
Messages
1,896
There are alot of factors here. First, dialing your amp with the sound blasting at your knees guarantees that when you think its the right balance of fatness and shrill, its way too bright. Those lows you feel from the cab immediately dissappear once you get 20 feet away, and all the treble you didnt hear just hits people in the face.

second, alot of sound men are deaf in the high frequencies, and continue to work because they own a truck full of gear and are reliable, and maybe easy to work with. But even the nicest of them often can't hear anything above 8k, and they'll think that a shrill toppy mess sounds good.

This is one reason I moved to a modeller setup, so that I can dial in my direct tone at home knowing exactly what FOH is getting. If they choose to add treble, not much you can do about it. But Its a safer bet than just walking in with an amp and watching ole Scruffy throw an sm57 at the center of the cone. I run a separate output on my helix to some guitar cabs and I have an eq in my rack so that i can darken it on stage to save the front from of people. I can often crank my amp and I never get complaints from FOH becaues it doesnt affect their signal and it doesnt mess up the mix in the room because its not a bunch of harsh treble bouncing around.

But thats me. I find 90% of live guitar tones to be painfully bright. I saw Big Wreck last night and they were perfect. Fat crunch tones from properly miced cabs. Glorious. Then Daughtry came on stage and it was a bright harsh mess.
 

taez555

Member
Messages
9,098
How do you dial your sound so you know what FOH will sound like?

You don't.

The job of the FOH person is sound reinforcement. Unless you're playing a stadium where everything on stage needs to be mic'd just to be heard, they take what's coming off the stage and combine it with what's in the PA to create your sound. So if you're listening back to a FOH mix, the engineer may have adjusted the PA mix bring out aspects of what your sound was missing for the overall mix of the band, which means it may sound weird on it's own, but work fine in the context of the environment.

Really all you can do is get the best sound on stage you can, with a blend you all can hear, so you all you need to focus on is the performance. The FOH guy can do whatever they want to your sound, you never know. So focus on what you can control.
 

Bammer77

Member
Messages
119
I typically use a senheiser 609. I prefer it to the 57. I offered. Sound guy declined.
That's some sound guy BS, right there! The sound guy works for the band, not the other way around.
I used to use a 609 and when I showed up to a gig, I handed it to the sound guy, telling him "use this mic on my rig." I had also marked the sweet spot on my speaker with gaffe tape and told the sound guy "please put the mic here." I was polite about it, but also firm if/when they said, "I usually use a 57."
Now I have a Friedman JJ Jr with a direct out that sounds amazing, so that's what I tell the sound guy to use. Again, politely, but still no negotiation on that.
Nothing worse for a gig than a power-hungry self-important sound guy, but on the flip side, nothing better than a prepared sound guy who's a team player.
 

batsbrew

Member
Messages
6,347
i used to use a PALMER PDI-09 instead of a 57...
the sound guy always preferred it... to a real mic.
super consistent sound, zero bleed, also used it for recording.
takes the 'placement' out of the equation,
but you are tied to only 3 options of 'eq' on the line level out.
 

suparsonic

Member
Messages
3,727
This is pretty much directed at people who DONT use IEMs.

I think I had too much treble dialed on my lead tone. It wasnt ice pick but wasnt fat sounding, which is what it sounded like on stage.

I think I made the mistake of dialing my tone without hearing it out front. I have a wireless and should have hopped off stage and should 20 feet in front of my rig.

How do you dial your sound so you know what FOH will sound like?

Does your rig sound muffled on stage when its dialed just right for FOH because your cab is aimed at your knees? I wonder if I should angle my cab?

Thoughts?
I own a PA and dial my tone through that. Generally what I call a good sound is bright, so I don’t stand where the amp hits me straight on.
 

MrTAteMyBalls

Member
Messages
4,664
Get to know where the sweet spot is on your rig and cab, using the common mics you encounter (57, 609, etc) and either mark the grill or just remember the general area, making sure they (or you) place it there. For me, I know where the dust cap meets the cone is my general sweet spot and then I adjust accordingly.


I have always made a square in masking tape so the guy knows where to point the mic. If he doesn't put it there I can move it there in about 3 seconds.

It makes such a big difference. I hate when they just come up and put it directly in the middle of the cone. That is the worst sounding spot on most speakers. Of course now I run direct so it doesn't matter anymore really.
 

MrTAteMyBalls

Member
Messages
4,664
When we provide our own sound I use a Friedman mic no mo. On all of my amps I have a second 8ohm tap that I can use so I don't even have to put the mic no mo "inline". It does not have a load, just XLR out with the "off axis" setting which routes to FOH mixer.
I have a Suhr reactive load at home so I can load down my amps completely silent, then test the mic no mo into FRFR (Yamaha DXR10) and fact check.
As a backup I have a Strymon Iridium on my pedalboard and can always route that to FOH mixer instead, but I'm really digging the Friedman ($99!).
For gigs with sound guy I let them use whatever they want, usually an e906.
I have one of those cool portable amp stands which gives a nice angle for me but not super drastic so that I can monitor perfectly and no major beaming to audience.
https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/AMP150--ultimate-support-amp-150-amp-stand
The only situation I could see where a modeler alone is the best choice is if you have no backline and FOH is doing 100%.
I like amps (and real pedals).


Those amp stands changed my life....lol. once I realized that I could use a 20-25 watt 1x12 combo on a stand and actually hear myself BETTER than when I had the 100 watt and 4x12....mind blowing and started my search for smaller and smaller amplification.
 

MrTAteMyBalls

Member
Messages
4,664
That's some sound guy BS, right there! The sound guy works for the band, not the other way around.
I used to use a 609 and when I showed up to a gig, I handed it to the sound guy, telling him "use this mic on my rig." I had also marked the sweet spot on my speaker with gaffe tape and told the sound guy "please put the mic here." I was polite about it, but also firm if/when they said, "I usually use a 57."
Now I have a Friedman JJ Jr with a direct out that sounds amazing, so that's what I tell the sound guy to use. Again, politely, but still no negotiation on that.
Nothing worse for a gig than a power-hungry self-important sound guy, but on the flip side, nothing better than a prepared sound guy who's a team player.


Try gigging as a bassist!!! I got an all tube bass rig....heavy as hell and amazing sounding(early 80s mesa d180). Nearly every venue forced me to run a DI direct from the guitar to FOH and just use my amp as a stage monitor. That is a 150 pound stage monitor I just hauled up there. If I ever gig bass again it will be one of those 200 watt micro heads and a single driver neo bass cabinet.

Or just use the Helix and not bring any stage sound.
 

mikebat

Member
Messages
12,073
I dial the tone in the way it sounds good on stage, the way I rehearsed and recorded all the songs.

What comes out of the FOH is what the FOH engineer dials in.

If I expand on that.... If it sounds great onstage and bad in the PA, then the PA is what you need to dial in.

Changing what you hear on stage so that the audience gets a better appreciation for what your OVERALL sound goal is, in my opinion, attacking this from the wrong angle. You need to perform the songs, and that means having a good vibe on stage, not all types of new variables when your job is to deliver the music as well as it sounds in rehearsal.

The FOH guy needs to get an accurate sonic picture of the band. If he is doing more that ducking nasty frequencies and gluing stuff together, and he is CREATING bad tones, that comes down to bad mics, bad mic placement and drastic boosts of EQ at the board.
 

JRod4928

Member
Messages
547
This is pretty much directed at people who DONT use IEMs.

I think I had too much treble dialed on my lead tone. It wasnt ice pick but wasnt fat sounding, which is what it sounded like on stage.

I think I made the mistake of dialing my tone without hearing it out front. I have a wireless and should have hopped off stage and should 20 feet in front of my rig.

How do you dial your sound so you know what FOH will sound like?

Does your rig sound muffled on stage when its dialed just right for FOH because your cab is aimed at your knees? I wonder if I should angle my cab?

Thoughts?

What 'clip' did you hear? A direct recording from the board? An iPhone? Did you hear it within the context of the rest of the band?

Maybe your tone sounded fine in the mix with bass/drums, etc.
 
Messages
2,897
I would take a CD or mp3 of my music to use in my rig for sound-check so I could hear my floorboard EQ from the middle of the audience floor, and would instruct sound to just leave all the EQ at noon (I mean to have all those highs!). That wouldn't work for a full house unless the bodies are present during sound check. Typically i opened so I could start up just after enjoying the sunset, so it wasn't an issue. Either that or I was the staggling out last act, and could play all night if I cared to, since I lose all awareness of time passing when playing.

FOH at our venue was on a balcony across from the stage in an 1890 wooden church. There's a huge difference in sound between head level and just a foot above the audience. FOH can't mix for what people actually hear.

I can say this though, in 1200 hours over three years I don't think I ever heard a mic'ed amp show (about 20% of shows) sound better than the worst of silent stage direct to PA shows. With amps and PA speakers present at once things always turned to mud, hardly enough clarity to make out melodies.

It does just now dawn on me though that we had a lot more bodies present during the amp shows. Being tall and across the floor i was hearing over them, but still, they absorb frequencies.

The best shows had silent stage with modelers, but that was really rare. Most shows were 5-10 pedals direct to PA board.

It occurs to me that people should be uniform in the frequencies they absorb. There should be a standard EQ template slider one can can just shift from 0-100% floor capacity for deaf board-ops.

What I'd really like to have is IEMs going to a low-latency wireless mic behind the audience, so I know exactly what they are hearing while i play.
 

maydaynyc

Gold Supporting Member
Messages
1,354
This is the key. if you are monitoring through a mic'd guitar cab you you must get down so speaker level to hear what the mic is hearing. And you should angle the cab up to your head so you are hearing it to use both less stage volume and you hear something closer to what the mic hears. If you don't, you may find you need to adjust the amp to make FOH sounds good but it will sound to muddy on stage, or vica versa.
When your cab is pointed at your knees you are not really hearing what your amp sounds like.

Put your ear in front of the speaker or point the amp at your head and you will hear it the way the mic hears it. This will sound drastically different than what you hear at ear level when your amp is on the ground facing your knees.
 




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