Heavy Metal is Rock & Roll?

Discussion in 'The Sound Hound Lounge' started by Killed_by_Death, May 28, 2019.

Is Heavy Metal Rock & Roll?

  1. yes, definitely

  2. unsure - 50/50 (or don't care)

  3. definitely not

  4. Heavy Metal is just the Blues, but a bit faster

Results are only viewable after voting.
  1. Black&Blue

    Black&Blue Member

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    I see it as falling under the umbrella of rock & roll music...genrism, much like herpes, the FDA, and video games, is dividing & destroying the world. I'd like to believe we are all better than that, even though I'm 99.9% certain I'm wrong.
     
  2. MarkSieber

    MarkSieber Member

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    My favorite metal bands are the ones securing my water heater.
     
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  3. ScottM58

    ScottM58 Member

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    I'm 60 and grew up in the 1960s. I first started seriously listening to music around 1970 as a 12 year old. Back then everything was divided into very basic categories. Anything not Jazz ,Country,R&B or MOTR was ROCK. The first bands that started to be called Heavy Metal that I can recall were Zeppelin, Deep Purple and especially Black Sabbath. I think Cream would have been thought of as kind of a "Proto HM" act along with a few other guitar based LOUD bands. Blue Cheer might be the actual first true Heavy Metal band when I think about it, if loud guitar heavy music was the requirement to be labelled as such. Mountain is another act. Atomic Rooster. All of them: if not Metal then the first clarion call...
     
  4. Moe45673

    Moe45673 Member

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    Much stuff called "metal" I don't consider "heavy metal". Symphonic metal, Power Metal, sword-swingy metal, that stuff is more in line with Queen's influence on music than Metallica.

    The cookie monster, double kick drum, chugging on a low C note, stuf that sounds like noise but has a rhythmic feel to it, that stuff isn't rock. It's a valid form of music, many people love it.



    I'm not too educated on metal, but my gut feeling is metal is meant to foster angry outrage at something whereas Rock is more diverse (and if it is meant to provoke outrage, does it with a bit more of an appeal to humanity).
    [Flame suit donned]


    Oh, btw, I like a lot of Metallica's stuff, even their 80s stuff.
     
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  5. Killed_by_Death

    Killed_by_Death Member

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    Even the darkest of dark Heavy Metal has a back-beat, I put on Bathory earlier & that stuff is like boogie-woogie to my ears!
     
  6. kato

    kato Member

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    I think of it as an entirely separate genre, like rap.
     
  7. middy

    middy Member

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    I disagree. The Ramones have a swinging back beat and are very danceable.
     
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  8. Killed_by_Death

    Killed_by_Death Member

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    Dee Dee wrote most of the songs, so they had a good rhythm (bass + drums).

    Blitzkrieg Bop has BOP right in there!

    "I Wanna Be Sedated" is definitely dance fodder.
     
  9. ichi

    ichi Member

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    apparently, quite, Rock ‘n’ roll is an attitude not a music.
     
  10. stephen sawall

    stephen sawall Member

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    The album and all the albums by them after...not the song.
     
  11. RodR

    RodR Member

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    You can hear the blues in Black Sabbath. Take a riff like 'Sabbra Cadabra' and compare it to something like 'Smokestack Lightning' or 'Boom Boom'. Still, I am in the I don't care camp, as I find it irrelevant since this all depends on the particular definition of Rock and Roll and Heavy Metal that each individual has, since there was no agreed upon definition for each term before the start of the discussion.
     
  12. stephen sawall

    stephen sawall Member

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    Real comes down to if you see "rock" as something different than "rock n' roll'' ....
     
  13. Rockledge

    Rockledge Member

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    What makes metal sound like metal isn't the music. It is the gear and the approach to playing.
    Take away distorted guitars, and you haven't got metal anymore.

    The flip side of that is that you could play a lot of classical music using the same instruments as metal, and it would sound like metal.
     
  14. BriSol

    BriSol Member

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    I tend not to entirely agree with strong comparisons of metal with classical music. I think metal musicians often claim more link between the two than there really is and the connection that does exist is often a surface level one. It does show up in prog metal and specifically neo-classical influenced stuff. Guitarists like Yngwie and Michael Romeo obviously excel in that area, and classical influences tinge a lot of power metal.

    But i think the similiarities are relatively superficial in most cases (there's more to classical music than straight up and down arpeggios of minor and diminished triads). The reason for my skepticism is that much of metal is really based on a bunch of parallel 5ths and riffs/dirges, and often doesn't have much in the way of harmony going on, while classical music typically is very harmonically involved and involves counterpoint (multiple melodies overlapping). Typical metal riffage and melodies, in contrast, is the equivolent of monotone. Unison lines more or less.

    I've heard the string renditions of Metallica songs, for example. Certain parts do orchestrate well enough when transferred over to a string section and reinterpreted, when there's a bit of harmony or implied harmony going on. But the "riffs" with a bunch of repeated notes and power chords, which is a good chunk of the music, sound really awkward and stilted, and IMO just silly, and nothing like classical music with a string section playing them.

    It seems like in most cases it's more accurate to say that metal takes a small slice of the classical influence pie or a certain set of cliches and runs with them - some basic minor key progressions, fiddling with the tritone, big arpeggios. You very rarely hear any usage of major keys, and there typically isn't much harmonic orchestration or any counterpoint, unless it's some neoclassical shred string backdrop. Metal is mostly about the power of the riff, parallel 5ths, the tritone, and the vibe of minor keys (usually in a relatively static sense). Classical music is more about long extended harmonic adventures and the textures created by overlapping melodies happening at once.
     
    Last edited: Jun 2, 2019
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  15. TheMindful

    TheMindful Member

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    Yeah, that sweeping generalization I would say isn't always true, but certainly is in many cases.
    Agree to disagree. Again, as stated before, I never claimed that metal was the same musically as classical music. I just feel like it relies on strong themes in a similar vein, that early rock n roll doesn't. That was my point.

    I think that music intrinsically can have metal qualities without being 20th century guitars and amps. That's just my opinion. I don't think it's gear dependent, I feel it's melody, rhythm and harmony. Hall of the mountain king by edvar Grieg is such a metal riff.
     
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  16. Rockledge

    Rockledge Member

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    Take the distorted "chugchugchug" rhythm guitars away and take the screaming operatic or cookie monster vocals away, it isn't metal anymore. Metal is a very narrow style of music, the parameters are not far apart. It is mostly about memorizing scales and reciting them over top of basic rhythms.
    Of course there are exceptions, depending on how wide you stretch the definition of "metal".
    Can you name a metal band that has no guitars?
    I suppose there are those who would consider Dream Theater to be metal, which they certainly have elements of it. I think of DT as being more of a band that tried to mimic the progressive rock approach to music using distorted guitars and the stereotypical metal vocals.
    I have never heard of a metal band that had no highly distorted electric guitars.
     
  17. stephen sawall

    stephen sawall Member

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  18. TheMindful

    TheMindful Member

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    But the chug chug chug part of it also comes from classical music. I'm not saying metal uses as much musical knowledge, or is as vast. I studied classical music at music school, so I'm not oblivious to the differences between these two things. But I think the argument that music can't have metal qualities without distorted guitars is silly. As I already stated earlier, the song that defined the genre of metal, Black Sabbath, was an altered version of a piece by Gustav Holst (Mars). Tony altered one measly note on his guitar, and voila, metal was born.

    Listen, we're speaking from two different vantage points. I'm not speaking of metal being classical music in style, im saying that essentially music in the US and Western Europe can be boiled down to either coming from Bach, or the blues. If it's just a basic groove, like rock n roll, that feels grooving, that's the blues. If it's anthemic melodies and/or riffs, that is the influence classical music has had on Western society over the last millennium plus.

    The debate was does metal come from rock n roll. I say yes, but only in attitude, but that whereas rock n roll is blues based, metal to me musically has more in common with classical than blues.
     
    Last edited: Jun 2, 2019
  19. Rockledge

    Rockledge Member

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    Attitude? Hmmm... If I remember right the rock n roll attitude had to do with "hey man, I love music and I especially like THIS kind of music so lets do some".
    Rock and rock n roll came from people in all walks of life with all kinds of various attitudes about things.
    What rock and rock and roll were about was about doing things that were new and unique, not adopting some just add water "attitude".
    That is exactly why rock music died off when it did and very few new groups that developed after rock died really got what rock was. Rock music was not about conforming to some specific trend in music, it engulfed an entire generation and all the various attitudes they had.
    Metal does not fit that parameter. It is a style of music with very narrow and identifiable sounds.
    Which, as I say, mostly revolves around the screaming operatic and cookie monster vocals and guitars distorted to the extreme. It fits a specific stereotype, and as a result has become a bit of a self parody over the years.
    Just like how rock music got corrupted, the music industry ( and as a result the groups) started talking on some stereotype and trying to fit into some image that was comprised of all the extremes, and in the process the music got left behind.
    That is why you have such parody crap in rock as spelling it "rawk", putting a "z" on the end of bands names, the silly head bobbing, and all that cartoonish crap.
    Sadly, over time, the same thing has happened to metal. It has turned into an image rather than the style of music that that image was parodied from.


    Metal did indeed grow out of rock music, which grew out of rock and roll. the one thing that fueled metal the most was technology, solid state amps with master volumes ( and sometimes tube amps with master volumes) where all the distortion occurred in pre-amp tubes and stomp boxes, and then rack devices.
    Sadly, metal lacks the one thing rock music had, which was feel and the search for making profound musical and lyrical statements. Which is another dive rock music took, it took on the stereotype of having lyrics about shallow garbage, lets all get high and party all night nonsense.
    And then of course is the rather bizarre "dark" image that again, is a bit of a self parody.

    Which is too bad, had metal blossomed out into a far wider range of styles rather than keeping within tight parameters, it might have become something very interesting.
    And of course as I say, there are bands like Dream Theater and the Porcupine Tree when they abandoned the rock and psychedelic approach to music and went more toward metal, who have done far more interesting things with the metal stereotypical sounds by blending it with other styles.
     
    Last edited: Jun 2, 2019
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  20. Rockledge

    Rockledge Member

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    The link is mostly in lead guitar runs. The classical connection isn't in the composition of the music, it is in that guitarists tend to wanker out memorized classical runs.
    That is the biggest part of the classical connection. And it is kind of interesting, it would probably be boring as hell if a bunch of musicians decided to actually study classical composition and write metal in the same ways that classical composers write.
     

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