Helix 2.8?

partytrain

Member
Messages
6,102
Line6 from the start said that regular updates was part of the product, so I think to just call customers who are not happy with waiting 8 months (so far) for an update "entitled" is a bit much.

The lack of communication IMO always ends up in frustration. It's what you see all the time on this forum, just look for threads about guitars taking too long to be made, amps, etc, the lack of communication is always the main thing, not really the delay itself. A more regular update on the new firmware status would be cool and make everyone less anxious. I also think that Line6 could throw a few bones for us customers, like new free IR's, make available presets from famous guys like Bumblefoot who seems to be using Helix regularly, etc.
We’ve been through this with Atomic and Fractal. And now line6. They can’t win. If they give a date, it’s “they are going to miss it, those bastards”. If they don’t give a date it’s “why aren’t they communicating? Those bastards.”

Feel free to read through this thread. There are literally people claiming that Line 6 is late at this point, even though no SPECIFIC date has been set, and all we have is a general timeframe, which we are still in right now. (For a free update. FREE). If that’s not entitled, I don’t know what is.
 

aleclee

TGP Tech Wrangler
Staff member
Messages
12,525
We’ve been through this with Atomic and Fractal. And now line6. They can’t win. If they give a date, it’s “they are going to miss it, those bastards”. If they don’t give a date it’s “why aren’t they communicating? Those bastards.”
I'll add that a week before the "deadline", people are complaining that L6 is not announcing that it's going to be "late". A lot can happen in 7 days.
 

Jugghaid

Member
Messages
833
I think both sides are acting ridiculous.

Line 6 said it would be available this spring. And that is fine. It is a range of time from approx January 21 through June 21.

I think that if they are not going to be able to make it available in that range of time (which we don't know is the case) because of unexpected delays or debugging, etc, that is also fine. I think it's reasonable to ask that they basically say "Hey, we're gonna be delayed by about 30 days or so. We don't want to release it with bugs. Look for it by the end of July or so. sorry for the delay but we want to get it right" And I think most reasonable people would be fine with that.

But to call people "entitled" when they are simply holding a company to what they have said they are going to do is quite simply stupid. That also goes for people that are going to throw a fit if L6 is in fact delayed a little bit.

As long as communication is there, I don't see any reason for anyone to get upset. If there is no communication, I think customers have a legit complaint. Right now they are not late so shaddap. :)
 

Tito83

Member
Messages
2,644
We’ve been through this with Atomic and Fractal. And now line6. They can’t win. If they give a date, it’s “they are going to miss it, those bastards”. If they don’t give a date it’s “why aren’t they communicating? Those bastards.”

Feel free to read through this thread. There are literally people claiming that Line 6 is late at this point, even though no SPECIFIC date has been set, and all we have is a general timeframe, which we are still in right now. (For a free update. FREE). If that’s not entitled, I don’t know what is.
Again, it's not about missing the deadline, just the lack of communication. They gave the estimate, great, but let everyone know where they're at, maybe some problems showed up, give a more accurate date along the way, make available some IR's and presets along the way. That would cool things down drastically IMO.

Well, if you sell a product saying there will be regular updates, it's not really *free*, is it? It's part of what your customer is buying.
 

phil_m

Supporting Member
Messages
11,395
Again, it's not about missing the deadline, just the lack of communication. They gave the estimate, great, but let everyone know where they're at, maybe some problems showed up, give a more accurate date along the way, make available some IR's and presets along the way. That would cool things down drastically IMO.

Well, if you sell a product saying there will be regular updates, it's not really *free*, is it? It's part of what your customer is buying.
Your initial purchase isn't really paying for the updates... It's the people who are buying the product now. Updates are kind of a form of marketing, in a way. It keeps the product line current, thus still making it something people want to buy even after it's been out for a few years.

Anyway, the number of people actually clamoring for the update is relatively small. Most users are probably only vaguely aware. To issue some sort of statement saying something about delays and issues probably potentially does more harm than good, as there's always a lot of people who are looking for negative information to hang on companies.

Personally, I'm of the opinion that many people are kind of sick and tired of everything thing in their life constantly needing updates... Think about it... If you use an iPhone with decent amount of apps, you probably have at least one app that gets an update a week. You get notification that you need to update iOS. You need to update your laptop... I get emails from Slate saying there's updates for plug-ins... I mean, it get old after awhile. So the more I think about it, the more I'm in the camp that making updates relatively rare is a better strategy for most users.
 

Tito83

Member
Messages
2,644
Your initial purchase isn't really paying for the updates... It's the people who are buying the product now. Updates are kind of a form of marketing, in a way. It keeps the product line current, thus still making it something people want to buy even after it's been out for a few years.

Anyway, the number of people actually clamoring for the update is relatively small. Most users are probably only vaguely aware. To issue some sort of statement saying something about delays and issues probably potentially does more harm than good, as there's always a lot of people who are looking for negative information to hang on companies.

Personally, I'm of the opinion that many people are kind of sick and tired of everything thing in their life constantly needing updates... Think about it... If you use an iPhone with decent amount of apps, you probably have at least one app that gets an update a week. You get notification that you need to update iOS. You need to update your laptop... I get emails from Slate saying there's updates for plug-ins... I mean, it get old after awhile. So the more I think about it, the more I'm in the camp that making updates relatively rare is a better strategy for most users.
What is actually paying for anything is irrelevant. I bought a product that the company said there would be regular updates for, that's all there's to it.

Fine, just buy stuff where the seller says "don't expect updates". Or buy from companies that have shown to be less likely to make them frequent... Or maybe even, ignore the updates. If your stuff works for you as they are right now, I don't get why would you update anything. You don't have to. I have a friend that owns a studio and his Mac is running Snow Leopard. Complaining about the people asking for the updates they were promised feels a bit out of place.
 

leftty

Member
Messages
704
I totally agree it’s communication that seems to be the major issue. Apple was mentioned a few post ago and IMO like them or not they are an example of proper communication. Every year end of May beginning of June they announce new iOS software, they tell you about all the new features and what it’s going to bring to the products and that it will happen in early fall. Then in September October I’m not sure of the date but a few weeks before the release they announce The actual release date. Now sure they’re always going to be bugs after its initial release, companies know this and more than likely prepare for it. It’s only natural that once it’s released and now more people are touching the software that things are going to be found. We are at that stage with 2.8 and summer almost here that it would be nice to hear from Line 6 telling us here is the official release date. If that happens to be after spring OK they obviously came up with a few more issues, not a problem. At least now we know what’s going on and when to expect the update .
 

mikah912

Member
Messages
6,519
I totally agree it’s communication that seems to be the major issue. Apple was mentioned a few post ago and IMO like them or not they are an example of proper communication. Every year end of May beginning of June they announce new iOS software, they tell you about all the new features and what it’s going to bring to the products and that it will happen in early fall. Then in September October I’m not sure of the date but a few weeks before the release they announce The actual release date. Now sure they’re always going to be bugs after its initial release, companies know this and more than likely prepare for it. It’s only natural that once it’s released and now more people are touching the software that things are going to be found. We are at that stage with 2.8 and summer almost here that it would be nice to hear from Line 6 telling us here is the official release date. If that happens to be after spring OK they obviously came up with a few more issues, not a problem. At least now we know what’s going on and when to expect the update .
You think the development resources of Line 6 are even remotely comparable to those of Apple?!?!
 

partytrain

Member
Messages
6,102
What is actually paying for anything is irrelevant. I bought a product that the company said there would be regular updates for, that's all there's to it.
But who’s definition of “regular” updates are you going to use? If line 6 feels once a year is “regular” than that’s that. They’re on pace.
 

leftty

Member
Messages
704
You think the development resources of Line 6 are even remotely comparable to those of Apple?!?!
No but I am assuming they are better with Yamaha backing them then by themselves alone. The thing is it’s not about resources, even your big companies like Microsoft and Apple have software releases and bugs still found afterwards. That wasn’t what I was trying to get across in my comment. What I was alluding to was how Apple communicates to its customers in a better fashion what to expect and when to expect it when it comes to software and product releases.
 

phil_m

Supporting Member
Messages
11,395
No but I am assuming they are better with Yamaha backing them then by themselves alone. The thing is it’s not about resources, even your big companies like Microsoft and Apple have software releases and bugs still found afterwards. That wasn’t what I was trying to get across in my comment. What I was alluding to was how Apple communicates to its customers in a better fashion what to expect and when to expect it when it comes to software and product releases.
I'm not sure what the issue is even... They announced at NAMM what the update would contain, and they gave a general timeline - Spring 2019. It's not like they're six months behind schedule or something like that.

And the Yamaha acquisition doesn't really really seem to have had any affect on their firmware development and testing process.
 

Tito83

Member
Messages
2,644
But who’s definition of “regular” updates are you going to use? If line 6 feels once a year is “regular” than that’s that. They’re on pace.
Mom and Dad travel for a month, you're home alone.

- Son, you washed the dishes and took out the trash?

- Regularly!

They arrive and the sink is full, garbage all over the place...

- You said you did the dishes and the trash regularly!

- Who's definition of regular are you using? Once a year is still regular, you know?

Id be getting my ass kicked for the next couple of weeks - actually regularly.
 

partytrain

Member
Messages
6,102
Mom and Dad travel for a month, you're home alone.

- Son, you washed the dishes and took out the trash?

- Regularly!

They arrive and the sink is full, garbage all over the place...

- You said you did the dishes and the trash regularly!

- Who's definition of regular are you using? Once a year is still regular, you know?

Id be getting my ass kicked for the next couple of weeks - actually regularly.
Oh, we’ve reached the strawman section of the thread? Awesome.
 

tonyhay

Silver Supporting Member
Messages
5,412
Right, a release PERIOD not DATE. They are still in that PERIOD, so no statement necessary. And even if it’s after the arbitrary period, what are you going to do about it? Go to fractal ? Go for it. They just dumped a product after 3 years of support (just to give some perspective to the whiney b**ches on this thread). You’ll be back.
Not really sure what you think you're arguing here. Line 6 gave its customers a timeframe for the update. If it doesn't now look like that can be met, it would be a good idea for them to tell that to its customers, and to give some kind of revised estimate. However as you point out, there is some time to go that is still within the timeframe that Line 6 indicated. It isn't an 'arbitrary period'; it is a timeframe voluntarily indicated by Line 6. There nothing 'arbitrary' about it.
At this point it's up to Line 6 - they are normally very good about communicating with their customers, and I think they should (and probably will) continue with that, if they can't meet the original timeframe.
You seem to have a problem understanding a pretty basic discussion, so I don't expect to get a sensible reply. You might want to switch to decaf.
 

MusicLaw

Member
Messages
1,879
Whenever it arrives, FW 2.8 brings us closer to what follows.... I welcome 2.8's new features (those shown at NAMM, and more), and remain eager for a newly revised User Manual when Firmware 3.0 is released next year (if not sooner). As intuitive as Helix is to use, there are loads of newly added features in the nearly 3 years since fw version 2.01 was released in July 2016. These are not covered in the existing Helix 2.0 Rev D User Manual (dated July 20, 2016). Whenever, I try to recall one of these infrequently used new features having to hunt through several Release Notes is a pain. When Cuckos can maintain a relatively current 460+ Page comprehensive User Guide for Reaper with most of their incremental releases, it is unfortunate that Line 6 has yet to allocate sufficient resources to update the Flagship product's User Guide for so long. I'm probably in the minority with those who would actually use or read a comprehensive Helix User Guide, but it would be a wonderful reference tool to augment using the Helix.
 

phil_m

Supporting Member
Messages
11,395
Whenever it arrives, FW 2.8 brings us closer to what follows.... I welcome 2.8's new features (those shown at NAMM, and more), and remain eager for a newly revised User Manual when Firmware 3.0 is released next year (if not sooner). As intuitive as Helix is to use, there are loads of newly added features in the nearly 3 years since fw version 2.01 was released in July 2016. These are not covered in the existing Helix 2.0 Rev D User Manual (dated July 20, 2016). Whenever, I try to recall one of these infrequently used new features having to hunt through several Release Notes is a pain. When Cuckos can maintain a relatively current 460+ Page comprehensive User Guide for Reaper with most of their incremental releases, it is unfortunate that Line 6 has yet to allocate sufficient resources to update the Flagship product's User Guide for so long. I'm probably in the minority with those who would actually use or read a comprehensive Helix User Guide, but it would be a wonderful reference tool to augment using the Helix.
Unrelated to this thread, but I've been using Reaper for over 10 years now, and I've never once looked at its User Guide... The fact that it's over 400 pages long doesn't really make me want to. :)
 


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