HELP!My tech says Mustard caps will add bottom end to my Marshall JCM800 2203x reisue

Discussion in 'Amps/Cabs Tech Corner: Amplifier, Cab & Speakers' started by daneswede1, Nov 18, 2005.


  1. daneswede1

    daneswede1 Member

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    I have been racking my brain over this. I just bought 0100Jm Axiom Output Transformer and Choke for my Marshall 2203x reissue. WHile I thought this would add bottom end I have been told by my NEW amptech it DOES not. It changes the tone. And not necessari;ly the Bottom ENd tojne. He says the CAPS add the bottom end I am looking for. I like the tone from my 2203x even if the PCD is Japanese made! So what! My wquestion is if I am simply looking to add bottom end should i

    A: Buy the Mustard Caps and put the Output Transformer and choke in and thats it?
    B: Change out the PCB JAP made board to a pt to pt board with preassembled Mustards already on it as well as all the other upgraded parts on this pt to pt board!?!?
    HELP!

    THanks for any info!\
    \By the way I run the head through a Bogner Ubercab and it sounds really good actually. I just want MORE BOTTOM END THATS ALL!! I thought the Dagnalls were the dogs rsponsible for this lack of bottom?? Please advise!THX!
    JIMI H:confused:
     
  2. skeeterbuck

    skeeterbuck Member

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    Hi daneswede1:

    I want to start off by telling you that I'm not an amp expert or that up on Marshall amps in general.

    It sounds to me that what he is telling you makes sense to me. It also soulds like a pretty extensive mod for that amp if you plan on replacing the whole PCB. I don't know if this is an option, but you may just want to consider finding another amp that already has to tone your seeking...more bottom end.

    also you may want to check out this forum http://www.18watt.com/

    I hope any of this info is a help to you. Good luck in your quest!
     
  3. Rich M

    Rich M Member

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    Just changing the caps to mustards will not add bottom end unless they are changed to larger values. If they are made too large, however, the sound can get too loose and farty. I wouldn't change the circuit board if your interest is in playing it and not tweaking it yourself (a turret board makes component changes much easier). If your tech is good, he should have some knowledge of what cap values should work.

    It is important to remember everything else that effect the overall tonal balance, pickups, speakers, tubes, strings to name a few. If, for example, your speakers are too thin sounding, compensating in the amp may not give as good tone as getting better speakers and leaving amp alone.
     
  4. AL30

    AL30 Member

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    Mustards are incredibly expensive.

    I'm not amp expert either (I've done some repair/maintenance on a few) but I can't see where swapping out the same value caps is going to make that much of a difference. It may make some difference depending on the make-up of the caps but, as already stated, changing the value will probably have the most effect.

    If you think you "need" mustards Sozo amplification is supposed to make a pretty good copy of the old mustards.

    http://www.sozoamplification.com/index.html

    Never tried 'em - maybe they work - maybe not. But at that price it's worth a shot. They're not much more expenisve than good Orange Drops or Mallory 150's. Also, you may want to haunt some pawn shops - I picked up an old Traynor (not working) for under $100 and it is loaded with Mustards.

    I suppose you could also try an EQ pedal in your signal chain - it's cheaper than Mustards and it will add low end (or take out highs).

    AL
     
  5. daneswede1

    daneswede1 Member

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    Thanks for the responses to my thread. They have all been very helpful. I will mention to my tech the value of the caps which he probably knows is what will add bottom end. But not to go too big. Also I use a Bogner Ubercab which does add some bottom end as well to the tone. It is wired at 8 ohm impedance. I think i just need to tweak the amp some more before I go walking blindly into something im not sure about ! Thanks for ewverything. The gear Page is definitely a place where people who care about each others tone go! THANKS @!
     
  6. Rich M

    Rich M Member

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    Not to spam, but I have some NOS mustards. Non-standard values are not very expensive. For example, a 0.047 or 0.1 could be used to fatten up a 0.022. If you're tech was going to have to buy them anyway, maybe PM me with the values he thinks he needs.
     
  7. Dai H.

    Dai H. Member

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    as above, you need to change the *value* of the caps to add bottom, or maybe put in something such as a resonance control.
     
  8. Wakarusa

    Wakarusa Member

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    I am an amp expert :)D) and concur that a change in brand without a change in value for coupling caps is not the path to better low-end.

    The MM OT, in addition to better frequency response (more detailed tone) will also improve the low-end chunk in the amp. It's just a better OT overall.
     
  9. daneswede1

    daneswede1 Member

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    Hello everyone, Im back again, Thanks for all the HELP! This forum is tops with me!
    Anyway, I have heard of this "Resonance" Control and that it adds bottom end to the amp. There is a JCM 800 on Ebay right now with this mofification on the back of the amp.

    I wentr to the studio last night and really turned this amp up for the first time to a band level voume. I have just put together my band from 96' minus our deceased singer. That is another sad story. Anyway, I realized that the Bogner Ubercab really does help the bottom end and as you really crank this amp the bottom seems to really start to take over. I forgot that you really have to push this amp to get some bottom. Still not close to the 81-82 2203 model I used to own but this may be adequate to go with some SOZO caps rated slightly higher as you say to possibly add bottom also>? Since I already have the AXIOM MM OT and CHoke ill be putting those in FIRST and see from there.
    I thoink I am nit picking some , This amp has a great tone for a reissue ! I run a TC Electronic G Force through the flawless FX Loop and it sounds magical. My buddy from GIT spent 2 weeks dialing in the G Force before he decided to sell it to me. He haws a protools DIgi002 and needs this unit not!

    Anyway, I am going to ask my tech about the "Responance mod" and possibly try the SOZO caps. I think there are five total. THe mustards are like $40 a piece and as i have read above the sozos are probably just as good and cost $10 a piece!

    So its caps and possibly the Transformers but im still undecided on that. And I mgonna check out that Resonance mod deal. THanks to everyone again for helping my spazzish behavior . I know I am being way over critical about this amp and could easily just go buy a 1981 JCM 800 2203 for $1300 but fuc it! I may pick one up anyway!
     
  10. daneswede1

    daneswede1 Member

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    I am very acute to these things you speak of which affect tone and believe I am at the top of my game in this regard for me anyway to my taste that is! It is subjective of course! Here is what I use currently

    1971 Les Paul CUstom BLack Bty with Dimarzio SUper DItortion Bridge and a Dimarzio PAF PRO in the neck Great tones.
    2001 PRS SInglecut with PRS #7s in both the neck and bridge. Not as high output as the GIbson but I love the evenness and over all output and tone of these pickups. Apparently PRS's best pickups out there and it shows.

    I use a BOgner Ubercab with (2) V30s and (2) G12T75s. A wonderful and happyt accident I ran across when my GIT friend layed an Uberschall and Ubercab on my lap for $1200!!!!!! I sold the Head for $1650 and I use this Ubercab with my JCM800. It is a wonderful cabinet they have made here and DEFINITELY compliments the JCM800. It is wired at 8 ohms. My sound is very smooth at 8 ohm impedance and these speakers in combination provide a wonderful and very tubey tone! Much improved over my 2005 Marshall 1960a Chinese made speakers 4x12" slant. Not a bad cab but it is going to be traded in when I buy my second amp/cab. For overdrive I use a KLON Centaur original gold I got for $300. I set it at LEvel 100% and Gain at 0% or ill kick the gain to 9 am or some what more. THis is clean boosting the amp and it is reminiscent of a extremely tubey Malmsteenish tone. Although Malmsteen uses a titally differant setup with his plexois and his DOID250, etc..... I also use an ANalogman Ibanez TS9 808 brown mod. Was thinking of getting the silver which puts the bottom end back into the pedal. This will not be ground breaking for the Marshall however but will make a 5% differance. I have used my buddied SIlver mod ANalogman TS9 SO I know.

    I have been playing JCM800s (This is my first reissue which is why I am such a spaz about the tone being "just right" ) for 20 years.
    I have to admit the 2203x has AS GOOD OF TONE as any JCM800 from 1981 or 82-3-4 100 watter I have played. THese were my personal favorite JCM800s. If you know about these amps . You understand why (6 caps-Drakes-Non PCB mount tone pots and joacks, etc.)
     
  11. daneswede1

    daneswede1 Member

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    Thanks for the information about the Output Transfomer . I have heard both ways. That the Output Transformer by Mercury Magnetics does not actually affect bottom end per say but then you dsay oit does. I have already bought the AXIOM model Out put transfomer and Choke so they are going in anyway and Ill see. Im sure this will help. If i am still unhappy with the bottom end then I will look at the Cap value change out. Sozos will be my choice for their price and good rep. Thanks for the info!
     
  12. Wakarusa

    Wakarusa Member

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    Since you already have it, plug it in and see ;)
    The MM iron has a better wind and better core, so the bass response is more impressive than the stock RI iron. It won't increase the low-end per se, it'll just make it so you can hear what was there already.
     
  13. daneswede1

    daneswede1 Member

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    Thanks for the info on the MM OT. I have the AXIOM OT and CHoke. Ill install that and see what happens I guess first. Ill hold off on the caps though. I am happy with the tone of the 2203x actually. It is surprisingly close to the vintage ones. My tech mentioned something about the PCB board or some parts on it being Japanese made. Still sounds fine to me. I am going for another amp to run in mono/stereo with the 2203x/Bogner Ubercab setup. Im looking at three amps right now.

    THe Mojave Peacemaker. I like the whole Eddie V Halen tone rhythm thing but I also like to run a tube driver pedal through a non master volume head to get that super smooth ZZ top on steriods tone as well. Ill have to see how the Peacemaker responds to this ! I have a Tone Bone Hot British 12ax7 pedal. Great pedal for those kinds of amps IMO. As well, Ans as many of you all know, Fuzz pedals also work well with non master volume heads. I ordered the ANalogman NKT275 Fuzz pedal which should be arriving soon. Ill take both down to Rocksolid amps along with my KLON CEntaur and my Analogman TS9 brown mod pedal. I think Distortion and Ovedrive pedals are more subtle and meant more for Master VOlume amps.

    Just look what EJ uses with his 68/69 plexis. He has the BK Butler TUbe Driver pedal. THe Dallas Arbiter fuzz original which costs a fortune hence me going with the Analogman fuzz. Still ran me $250! And I know he has two prototype "Valvedriver" pedals whic hare just beautiful pieces of work styled after the old Chandler tube driver. Cept Pedaldoctor uses a Transformer and there are many updates. Again, $375 and u[p for this one Go check it out at
    www.pedaldoctor.com Free bump for him.

    The second amp I am going to demo and possibly buy is the Marshall 59SLPHW Hand Wired half stack with hand wireds G12H30 4x12" cabinet $4k! Shiieaat! A lot fo money for an amp! I realize it will be difficult to incorporate my TC Electronics G FOrce in a stereo/ dual mono format with my 2203x wh9ich has an FX LOOP. Guess I could go through the D.I. or the front door.

    In the end I may end up with my 3rd choice. This is the BOGNER XTC Classic mod amp and 4x12 V30 half stack. I have dialed in the high gain channel on this amp before. I ran the pre eq switches OFF and all the knobs really opened up around the 1 oclock to 2 oclock area. Sounded a lot like a JCM800 with some smooth overdrive pedal in the front door. HoWEVER IT was darker, more bottom, more consistent and super wet and responsive to my G Force with the FX loop whoich also has a send level knob! I can then match the Marshall and the Bogner levels for the FX loops and run these two amps together in stereo. This may be my best bet. The XTC Classic is one amazing amp. In all, These three amps are COMPLETELY differant animals and this I know. If I buy the Marshall Handwired plexi I ll have to buy a Replex T Rex delay pedal thru the front door and maybe get an old spring reverb mini fender head or something for some wet. Wont mind ABYing these two Marshalls either. Im sure this would be a formidable array of tones.

    Ill have my website up soon and will post sound clips of both rigs after all is complete. A friend of mine has the Digi002 protools studio with the works. Wil lmake some good clips with that system! WE are also recording our preproduction stuff for he album there aswell before trapsing off to a $150 an hour studio for mix down, vocals, etc.

    Thanks to all again for the help.
     
  14. TheAmpNerd

    TheAmpNerd Member

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    My .02uf is this and I've fooled with
    a lot of caps (one of my favorite subjects).

    Typically mylar/polyester caps are not so efficient
    at passing the highs. The result is that
    bass appears to be emphisized.
    Perhaps the circuits of these amps
    are 'balanced" for the earlier
    mylar caps.

    I think the old mustards (Mullard/Phillips), mallory blues,
    mallory 150s and sozos should all be virtually the same,
    sonically.

    I think the ugly brown turd Fender caps
    are also polyester with much the same
    characteristics of those mentioned
    above in a slightly different package
    with a crummy looking coating.

    NOW

    The opposite of these are using a teflon cap.
    They are so efficient at passing the
    highs you almost have to compensate
    for this to balence out the circuit for
    some more bass.

    Don't be confused about the teflons being
    like the metalized poly caps. They aren't.
    Teflon highs are very smooth.

    Have fun and enjoy.

    For something more esoteric
    try the Jupiter beeswax and paper caps
    along with your carbon comp resistors!

    OR

    Roll own for a complely "new" tonal experience.

    AND

    as Todd said, if you've got the stuff already,
    whaddareya waitin' for?

    Wire 'em up and see what works best for you.

    Let us know what you've found sonically so we
    can all benefit from the experimentation.
     
  15. VacuumVoodoo

    VacuumVoodoo Member

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    Due to teflon's low friction coefficient ?

    sorry AmpNerd, couldn't stop myself:D
     
  16. TheAmpNerd

    TheAmpNerd Member

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    LOL,

    well at least you didn't use "helping hands".
    or "very slippery"
    or, (insert comment here).

     
  17. Rich M

    Rich M Member

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    Who's sells mustards for $40 ea? I'm selling 0.1 and 0.047 for $6. Maybe 0.022 and 0.68 generate more, but $40 still seems about 2x too high. Sozos are $10 ea now? :eek:
     
  18. Rich M

    Rich M Member

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    Aren't the V30 notoriously trebly? perhaps swapping those out might make a difference. I don't know about PRS pickups but the Dimarzios are first rate, IMHO.
     
  19. AL30

    AL30 Member

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    Just thinking out loud. You've purchased an expensive amp - not boutique prices but certainly not cheap. Now you're sinking a good deal of time and money into modding it.

    Are you sure you've got the right amp?

    Seems like a lot of $$ to invest if you're not sure you will be happy with the outcome. Just a thought.

    AL
     
  20. TheAmpNerd

    TheAmpNerd Member

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    AND

    Then along comes a regular guy and speaks
    sense and wisdom.

    It is usually best to buy the right amp to start with,
    or at least know your outcome and focus in on that.

    I'm not sure If I would say V30 are notoriously trebly.
    They sizzle and have the upper mid hump. I like them
    and aged too.

    Now, if you were talking JBLs, I almost might agree.

    But then on the vintage amps (mostly Fenders)
    that used them JBL, 10s, 12s, and 15s, they've gotten
    a bad rap. The amps that have come in with warn out
    and dry lytics so they are going to be way trebly.

    Once the amp is working right and you balance
    out the circuit, they sound fantastic!

    I mean your guitar tone really shines through.
     

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