Help regarding modes

[monty]

Can I ask you guys to list some players ripping some modes in solos?
I've been working on them lately and find I learn best by listening to examples.
I would love some examples from Rush, VH, Jimi, Alice In Chains and stuff like that.
Thanks, and hope it helps others too.

 

[JonR]

Not sure about the others, but Jimi never played modes - uness you count the rather awkward solo in Purple Haze, which sounds to me as if he was trying to emulate the dorian solo in the Doors "Light My Fire". (Ray Manzarek was probably about the only rock musician who knew what the hell modes were in the 60s.)

Santana plays dorian all the way through "Oye Como Va" (but he may not have known what it was).

 

[willemhdb]

The artists you mentioned really focus most of their soloing around pentatonic variations. Slash is another example of someone who uses the blues scale a lot, but then he will venture out sometimes and include `alien' notes such as the perfect sixth and major second (for details see the series at http://www.theloneguitaristblog.com/advice/3-lead-playing-ideas-slash-link/) . So I guess you could call that Dorian, or whatever. But I believe that these artists view these notes as additions/extensions to the basic pentatonic/blues scale rather than think `modes'. Of course I could be completely wrong. But these artists tend to focus around what sounds good rather than be restricted by thinking `modes'. (With the exception maybe of Jerry Cantrell...?)

 

[JonR]

Yes, if you want to understand the sound of modes, the effects they have, you should listen to chord sequences in those modes, not solos in major or minor keys. Modes are not relevant in major and minor key chord progressions. (As willemhbd says, most rock guitarists use the blues strategy of minor pent over major or minor key sequences, with bends here and there and maybe the odd added 2 or 6.)

"Light My Fire" has a lengthy section in dorian mode (just Am and Bm chords, = A dorian mode).
"Oye Como Va" is just Am7-D7 all the way, which is also A dorian.
A phrygian sound can be heard on Pink Floyd's "Set the Controls for the Heart of the Sun" (best example I know).
The "Smoke on the Water" riff is kind of phrygian, but the rest of the song isn't (it's a mix of pentatonic, dorian and phrygian, actually).
"Sweet Child o' Mine" is mixolydian, until the chorus. The first couple of short guitar breaks are also mixolydian (in D), while the main solo is E harmonic minor.
Joe Satriani's "Flying in a Blue Dream" is lydian (mostly).

It's not just a matter of scale choice in any of these. It's about constructing a chord sequence that supports that mode (and no other). The soloist then uses notes from those chords for the solo (that's what Slash does in "Sweet Child"). In the Satriani tune you can hear the lydian sound in the chord riff before he plays any lead line.

 

[monty]

Thanks Jon, that is exactly the kind of stuff I was looking for. While researching modes, I've read a ton of your posts and when I made mine I was thinking " JonR is gonna give me **** for not properly learning them", lol. You sure know your stuff.

 

[monty]

The artists you mentioned really focus most of their soloing around pentatonic variations. But I believe that these artists view these notes as additions/extensions to the basic pentatonic/blues scale rather than think `modes'.

That is exactly what I am trying to do. I've always added these notes, but now I am trying to understand why/how they work a bit better now.

 

[Gigbag]

I don't know if Van Halen thinks of some his solos this way, but you can analyze some of his fast lagato lines in "I'm The One" as symmetrical 3-note per string runs from the same key center. For example, in the first solo, a fast run starting on the 5th string at the 16, 17 and 19th fret of each string (5 through 1), could be analyzed as A mixolydian (stings 5 and 4), A Dorian (string 3), A Lydian or Blues (string 2), and A Major (first srting). In the second solo he uses frets 12, 14 and 15 on the 1st 3 strings which fall into E Blues and E Dorian. This flurry of notes falls into what Satriani calls the pitch axis approach -- playing different modes and scales based on the same root.

Van Halen's solos in "On Fire" use the same technique of symmetrical fret patterns on adjacent strings (moving sets around the fretboard) to incorporate 6 different F# scales/modes -- if you want to think of it that way. He also uses this in part of the "Beat It" solo.

I found looking at it that way simply helped me understand why it worked. Once you see how many symmetrical patterns can fit various scales/modes of the same root, you just fly on the string sets that work and don't think about the modes.

This is only one example of how modes are used, based on your interest in VH solos. I have it all charted in pdf format and could email it to you if you PM your address. I charted VH solos out years ago trying to make sense of why it worked. I more recently put it into pdf using the Fretboard Diagrams program for giving lesson.

 

[dsw67]

Just a suggestion, but you might want to try experimenting on your own. Personally I've found this to be the best way to really get the sound in your ears and fingers. Try doing 1 per day.

For example, if you have a looper, record a loop of Cmaj7 (any style or rhythm you like). Then spend 5-10 noodling C lydian over it. Play each note slowly, then 2nds, 3rds, and make up melodies. Have fun!

Tomorrow pick another. Loop D7 and practice mixolydian, etc.

 

[Gigbag]

Monty, I'm glad the charts were helpful.

Another way to use what you know and modes is (as mentioned above) to associate your minor pentatonic scales with minor modes, and major pentatonics with major modes. In other words, add two notes to your pentatonic scales to make a mode of the major scale.

For example, start with the common A minor pentatonic box with the root on the 5th fret of the 6th string. Add B and F# notes to make A dorian. Also, try just adding one note to a pentatonic scale to get the flavor of a mode, but without all 7 notes.

Starting with the C Major scale (same as it relatvie minor, A natural minor), harmonizing in 3rds you get the following triads:

C Maj -- Ionian mode
D Min -- Dorian mode
E Min -- Phrygian mode
F Maj -- Lydian mode
G Maj -- Mixolydian mode
A Min -- Aeolian mode
B Dim -- Locrian mode
​

The modes of the C Major scale (or A Minor scale) are major or minor (B is diminished) the same as the triads (or extended chords made from those roots).

Emphasize a C bass note, and play any mode of the C Major scale. They are all the same notes. But, change the bass (or underlying chord) and see how those same notes might have a different flavor.

 

[monty]

Thanks again Gigbag.
That is actually what I am working on. Someone (maybe you?) on a older thread referenced a old GFTPM article on just that and I dug it up and it made alot of sense.

 

[Goo Fighters]

Phrygian:



Mixolydian:



Ionian:

 

[Goo Fighters]

Just a suggestion, but you might want to try experimenting on your own. Personally I've found this to be the best way to really get the sound in your ears and fingers. Try doing 1 per day.

For example, if you have a looper, record a loop of Cmaj7 (any style or rhythm you like). Then spend 5-10 noodling C lydian over it. Play each note slowly, then 2nds, 3rds, and make up melodies. Have fun!

Tomorrow pick another. Loop D7 and practice mixolydian, etc.

This is good advice, but I would use C7 instead of D7.

 

[JonR]

This is good advice, but I would use C7 instead of D7.

yes, I think it's a good idea for comparison to use parallel modes, not relative ones.

 

[dsw67]

This is good advice, but I would use C7 instead of D7.

Why? If the OP just picked a random mode and key each day, why would C7 matter over D7?

 

[dsw67]

yes, I think it's a good idea for comparison to use parallel modes, not relative ones.

Why? Not trying to challenge, just trying to understand.

What I meant in my post was just pick random modes and keys.

 

[JonR]

Why? Not trying to challenge, just trying to understand.

What I meant in my post was just pick random modes and keys.

Random is fine, but parallel (same root note) is better if you want a direct comparison between the characters of each mode.
Relative modes (same 7 notes, different root) is the least useful, because it can just feel like it's the same key. (You happened to pick two relative modes C lydian and D mixolydian. )
Still, it's not a problem if you spend long enough on each one, really hearing its root as a keynote.

 

[buddastrat]

I don't know if Van Halen thinks of some his solos this way, but you can analyze some of his fast lagato lines in "I'm The One" as symmetrical 3-note per string runs from the same key center. For example, in the first solo, a fast run starting on the 5th string at the 16, 17 and 19th fret of each string (5 through 1), could be analyzed as A mixolydian (stings 5 and 4), A Dorian (string 3), A Lydian or Blues (string 2), and A Major (first srting). In the second solo he uses frets 12, 14 and 15 on the 1st 3 strings which fall into E Blues and E Dorian. This flurry of notes falls into what Satriani calls the pitch axis approach -- playing different modes and scales based on the same root.

Van Halen's solos in "On Fire" use the same technique of symmetrical fret patterns on adjacent strings (moving sets around the fretboard) to incorporate 6 different F# scales/modes -- if you want to think of it that way. He also uses this in part of the "Beat It" solo.

I found looking at it that way simply helped me understand why it worked. Once you see how many symmetrical patterns can fit various scales/modes of the same root, you just fly on the string sets that work and don't think about the modes.


This is only one example of how modes are used, based on your interest in VH solos. I have it all charted in pdf format and could email it to you if you PM your address. I charted VH solos out years ago trying to make sense of why it worked. I more recently put it into pdf using the Fretboard Diagrams program for giving lesson.

Sorry but that's way overthinking and complicating some simple lines. No way EVH or anyone that plays that way would think like that. To borrow his line, "it's like falling down the stairs and landing on your feet" is how he approached his playing. Why it worked was simple. He was playing over a root/bass note and that gives tons of options. He played with conviction, great phrasing and timing, and anything would work because he resolved it well. If he was playing with a rhythm or keys, a lot of his lines would have been more diatonic. Guitar World did a lesson on EVH's symetrical stuff on I'm the One and On Fire, and made some comments as well about it not overanalyzing such a simple thing, from a few years ago as well.

Others like Dimebag and Lynch are also more shape players, than more theory-scale type players. It's a little different way of thinking and you come up with some cool stuff. It makes it fun, not having to think so much. I learned, play something like you mean it and it always can sound good. But these lines are not the best for learing or starting to understand modes and the colors they have. Mainly because you're only getting fragments from them, mixed together and not really hearing their unique sound.

But heck, when you get down to it, it even works with chords. the typical blues licks use many of the same modes all in one even over a chord, not just a bass. Because it's dominant sound, it's very open to lots of choices and maybe because of the min 3rd/maj3rd we are so accustomed to in blues. Pretty much wide open, it really comes down to phrasing.

 

[Gigbag]

Sorry but that's way overthinking and complicating some simple lines. No way EVH or anyone that plays that way would think like that. To borrow his line, "it's like falling down the stairs and landing on your feet" is how he approached his playing. Why it worked was simple. He was playing over a root/bass note and that gives tons of options. He played with conviction, great phrasing and timing, and anything would work because he resolved it well. If he was playing with a rhythm or keys, a lot of his lines would have been more diatonic. Guitar World did a lesson on EVH's symetrical stuff on I'm the One and On Fire, and made some comments as well about it not overanalyzing such a simple thing, from a few years ago as well.

Others like Dimebag and Lynch are also more shape players, than more theory-scale type players. It's a little different way of thinking and you come up with some cool stuff. It makes it fun, not having to think so much. I learned, play something like you mean it and it always can sound good. But these lines are not the best for learing or starting to understand modes and the colors they have. Mainly because you're only getting fragments from them, mixed together and not really hearing their unique sound.

But heck, when you get down to it, it even works with chords. the typical blues licks use many of the same modes all in one even over a chord, not just a bass. Because it's dominant sound, it's very open to lots of choices and maybe because of the min 3rd/maj3rd we are so accustomed to in blues. Pretty much wide open, it really comes down to phrasing.

I agree. I don't think about or use modes this in this way. Note, I said I had no idea if VH even considered this. I just found it interesting to analyze why certain symmetrical patterns fit (after having played them for years). I don't teach it this way, but the charts I made make it obvious why the patterns are really several modes/scales of a single root, and sometimes that visual helps people understand. I figured out what modes were almost 30 years ago, different ways to apply them over time, and I rarely think abou them when improvising. I try to follow my long standing rule of keeping things simple -- it fits my simpleton mind.

 

[monty]

^^
Agreed. I dont think of this stuff either when I am playing, learning is another story.
It was useful seeing what he was doing charted out.