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Help with Custom Audio Dual Line/Mixer +

Discussion in 'The Rack Space' started by Chamai, Dec 21, 2017.

  1. Chamai

    Chamai Member

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    Hi, I was wondering if some of you guys can help me up. I am a total noob with connections and etc.
    After waiting for 2 months, i finally got my hands on the dual line mixer +. This seems to be a newer version with more mix 1 outs.

    I just realise i need to buy more cables tomorrow. I am not too sure how to hook this thing up.

    My question is: Do i just get a cable and plug from mix 1 (out L&R) directly into the PCM 81 then out to mix 2 (in 1 L&R)? i want my G major in mix 1 and my PCM 81 to be in mix 2. On the diagrams i see online, seems like the signal is split after mix 1 out into mix 2 (in 1 L&R) and into a FX processor.

    JCM 800 --> Load (line out) --> Fulltone TERC (L&R out) --> Mix 1 (L&R in) --> Mix 1 (exp out L&R) --> TC G Major --> mix 1 ( in 2 L&R) -- ??????? PCM81

    thanks guys. attached is a diagram of the line mixer +.

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Dec 22, 2017
  2. Dave L

    Dave L Member

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    If I remember correctly you normally don´t plug into mix 2 input 1, since that breaks the internal connection from Mix 1. That´s what you´re thinking is a split in the flow chart, but it is an internal thing that you see labelled as "internally normalled" on the second image.

    But yeah, EXP out will feed the TC and Mix 1 out feeds the units that will go into Mix 2.

    Another thing, I would strongly recommend making your own cables. You´re a very lucky man if you can get a rack noise-free with store-bought cables that have the ground attached on both ends.
     
  3. OAJ73

    OAJ73 Member

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    Nice choise of mixer Chamai.
     
  4. Anje

    Anje Supporting Member

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    Yes you need to connect the inputs of the PCM81 to a pair of outputs from Mix1 (Mix1 Out1 for instance), then the connection of the outputs of the PCM81 to Mix2 Ins depends on what you want in Mix2:
    - if you want Mix2 to mix the Mix1 outs in parallel of the PCM81 outs, you need to plug the PCM81 outs in any Mix2 ins BUT the Mix2 In1 (plugging something in Mix2 In1 will break the internal connection between Mix1 Outs1 and Mix2 Ins1, that's the definition of them being "normalled")
    - if you don't want "dry" Mix1 Outs in Mix2 then plug the PCM81 outs in Mix2 Ins1 (that would mean having Mix1 Outs only in series with the PCM81)
     
  5. Chamai

    Chamai Member

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    guys, thanks for the help and comments.
    if i may ask a few more questions.
    on the first diagram, it seems like everything connected mono in and stereo out? i will plan on using both pcm 81 and g major (which are stereo in & out) in mix 1 after i pick up another reverb/delay for mix 2.
    now it seems like i have an additional mix1 LR3 outs and a mono mix1 LR 4 out compared to the previous generation line mixer. what is the purpose of having additional mix1 outs?

    QAJ73, i have never tried making anything really. are there no cables out there right now that can give me noise free? so far my rig has been dead quiet. i can hear a bit of noise coming out from my marshall 9002. but thats it
     
  6. OAJ73

    OAJ73 Member

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    I agree with Dave L, buy some mogami in bulk and some switchcraft connectors and learn to do your own cables. Then you can make proper length also and will get a better result
     
    Baba Louie likes this.
  7. Dave L

    Dave L Member

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    I´m not really sure what your first question is, but yes, the units in mix 1 are mono in and stereo out in that first picture. Most of the old Bradshaw racks only had FX units that were mono in and stereo out, and there really isn´t any difference in using units that are stereo in. If your mixer only has one exp out you can just use some Y-cables to get the stereo signal to both units.

    Additional Mix 1 outs are simply to feed more units going into Mix 2.
     
  8. teofilrocks

    teofilrocks Supporting Member

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    What is it about store bought cables that leads to rack noise?
     
    Not Orange and CarlGuitarist like this.
  9. Dave L

    Dave L Member

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    There are plenty of places in a rack where ground loops can occur in essentially unpredictable ways, with all those mains-powered units and different ground schemes, and the easiest way to get around many snags is to have the shield disconnected on one end of the cable. Of course you can lift the shield on store-bought cables too, but at that point it definitely seems wiser to me to make your own. Saves a lot of money and the wiring gets neater.
     
    teofilrocks likes this.
  10. Chamai

    Chamai Member

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    everything works now.

    as for noise, i got none really.
     
  11. Baba Louie

    Baba Louie Member

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    It's about time you start.
    Making your own cables is EASY. VERY EASY.
    The money you will save, by making your own cables, for as many as you're going to need for your system, is in the hundreds of dollars. Not exaggerating. Especially, because you really should run balanced XLR cables into and out of anything that works at line level. You need XLR on one end, and a TRS 1/4 inch on the other. To buy one of those cables, is going to cost you $20. And, that's for like a cheap Monoprice one. Times that by even just 10 cables.
    Not only will you save a lot of money, but, you can make them any length you need. When you're putting your rack together, you're gonna be saying to yourself "damn...I need 2 more cables to connect this processor to the mixer." So, then you're going to have to order it, and wait. And, you're going to go through that quite a few times, no matter how well you plan your signal chain in advance. There's always going to be SOME cable you forgot about.
    You can make your own cables, Chamai. If I can do it, anybody can.
    I order all of my connectors and cable from a company called Redco, out of Connecticut. Fast shipping, good prices, big selection, and, they've always got my order correct. You can get EVERYTHING from them. Solder. De-solder. Shrink wrap. They might even sell soldering guns...Idk. You can get a soldering iron at any hardware store, or Lowes or Home Depot.
    There are lots of YouTube videos to learn from. Bro, it's SO simple. And, anybody who is into any type of audio, be it a live soundman, recording studio geek, guitar pedal guy, or, rack guru, should know how to make and repair audio cables.
    Also, get yourself one of those thingies that has 2 alligator clamps on it, and some of them come with a magnifying lens. It's absolutely ESSENTIAL to have one of these, to hold the cable and the connector while you're soldering. They're cheap. And, you're going to need some wire strippers. That might not be the kind of strippers you want, but, those are the kind you need. Remember, also, when buying this stuff, YOU GET WHAT YOU PAY FOR. You spend $10 on a cheap soldering iron, that's what you're gonna get. Junk. Spend the extra $20 to get yourself a decent soldering iron. Tools are the most important thing a man can have. Without tools, a man is NOTHING. There is absolutely NOTHING more important in life, than GOOD TOOLS. I don't think I can stress this enough. With good tools, you can make s*%t happen. Without good tools, you're HELPLESS. (And worthless.)
    And, Chamai, once you spend the $50-$100 on all of the soldering tools, you'll have them forever, and you'll always be able to make any cable you want.
    Making your own cables is 1000 times easier than programming a PCM 81.
    So, if you can do that, you can surely make your own cables.
    Plus, you'll be a lot more proud of your finished rack, when you can say "yeah...I made all of my own cables".
    If we find out you bought $500 in pre-made cables, yer not allowed back here.
     
  12. italo de angelis

    italo de angelis Member

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    Baba IS right!

    Invest in a soldering iron, learn how to use it... it's not difficult.
    I did... 25 years ago... never got a bad cable, never had to re_solder any of mine... saved hundreds of €... lived a happy life!

    I just tried the Redco website. They list all their parts and have a custom cables interface where you can choose your cable and choosing wire type/length and brand, connectors type and brands:
    my choice was 9 feet (3 meters) Mogami console cable W2944 + Neutrik NC3MX XLR straight + Neutrik NP3C 1/4" TRS custom cable = final price was 18.12 $ ... soldered by them.
    And it's cheaper than the much lower quality cable you buy from the typical musical instruments shop. You won't find such a cable in those shops.

    Then I moved to their lists, choosing the same parts... I'll make my cable:
    Mogami W2944 = 0.29 $ per foot
    Neutrik NC3MX XLR = 2.62$
    Neutrik NP3C 1/4" TRS = 4.49 $

    the same cable made by me = total 9.72 $ !
    That's about 50% off... not bad. And I know I can get better prices than those....

    Making your own cables pros:
    -choice of quality parts
    -exact length needed cables
    -save a LOT of money, still buying THE very best parts
    -you learn an aspect of audio problems solving
    -you learn the Zen of audio cable making...
    -join a men club!
     
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  13. Chamai

    Chamai Member

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    Will do guys.
    i am actually gonna get my friend to make some cables with me. he's got a really good soldering iron. gonna make crap ton of cables and replace my cables on my stereo system as well.

    update: my rig sounds awesome now. running all my crap in parallel is great. i finally have some time to read up on the instruction manual on my PCM 81. so far i have been just changing around presets.

    i printed the whole manual from work when no one was around. didn't realise it had so many pages. i was hearing this weird phaser sound every time i bypass the pcm 81. turns out i have to mess with some bypass settings.

    complex piece of gear, but worth the learning curve. i am trying to introduce my guitar buds to rack units, but they don't know wtf i am talking about most of the time when we talk about gear. "too heavy" and " programing? wtf, modulation in verbs and stereo 100% wet??" is the reaction i get. i am turning into a bit of a snob i guess haha. if i can only get my wife to allow me to pick up two 4x12 cabs.

    happy holidays all
     
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  14. italo de angelis

    italo de angelis Member

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    modulation in reverbs....
    today it's a big thing and it sounds so S_H_I_T_T_Y as never ever happened before.
    Modulation was introduced in digital reverberation long ago... by modulating A FEW of the delay lines (NOT ALL!) you'd avoid some of the clunky resonance/patterns you would get by those early algorithms.
    Were all reverbs modulated? Nope! A few used randomization, others didn't have any modultion at all (Eventide).
    Today? Boy... you hear these "reverbs" with a gazillion of modulated delay lines or even processed thru a post_chorus... and they all sound so "the same" and without nuances, no beauty, no personality...
    nobody will know about them in 10 years from now... no legend, nuthin' de nuthin'.
    A touch of modulation is a thing... a ton of it... is so brutal... like melted honey and sugar on your nuts!
    Gotta get some taste BEFORE doin' any damage!
     
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  15. italo de angelis

    italo de angelis Member

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    It's almost a freudian thing... everybody claims chorus from the '80s was so untasty or cheesy... and they all use way over the top modulated reverbs.
     
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  16. Chamai

    Chamai Member

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    i with heavy synth and all the weird **** that goes on, YES, they all sound the same. find a decent plugin preset and done.
    as for delay lines, thats were the conversation usually ends.
    i get some hate using my tri chorus with distortion.
    i gotta get rid of my g major soon, the pitch shift "brightens" the sound a bit. feel kinda off
     
  17. Not Orange

    Not Orange Supporting Member

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    Hasn't been a problem for me in my rack with a PCM 80, Ensoniq DP/4, and Ensoniq DP Pro units.
    They're all wired up with store bought cables and I don't hear any significant noise even at gig levels . :dunno
    But I'm in complete agreement with you on it being considerably cheaper and neater.
    I don't have a great deal of free time with the demands of my day job so buying pre-made cables was a tremendous time saver for me.
     
    Last edited: Dec 27, 2017
  18. looper309

    looper309 Member

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    @Chamai
    I was leery of making my own balanced cables at first, but owing to the advice and support on this forum, I realized it's the only way to go, and I forced myself to learn. One trick I learned is to cut the leads to precise lengths. Makes it a whole lot easier. Result, my first pair *sigh*:
    [​IMG]
    Mogami W2549 Blue cable - $0.77 per foot
    Neutrik NP3X-B gold plugs - $5.60 each
    I used a cheapo Behringet CT-100 cable tester to check them. You want a 3-die shape.
    [​IMG]
    These guys are 21", exactly what I needed for my rack. No extra lengths slopping around. Now off to build ten more - with gained confidence.
    Nicer than anything you'll get custom ordered and paying through the nose.
    If I can do it, anyone can do it! So do it!
     
  19. italo de angelis

    italo de angelis Member

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    Looks nice... but you could make it smarter!
    Use dedicated LINE level console grade cable rather than mic one... it will sound better and it's also nicer to handle as it's thinner.
    Prefer the Mogami W2944 over the W2549 as it suits rack installations better... and is cheaper (0.30$ per foot):
    https://www.performanceaudio.com/search/?query=Mogami+W2944

    Also... no need for gold plated connectors... been using non gold plated jacks for decades and no problems. Save there too....
    Neutrik NP3X 1/4" TRS - $4.48 each:
    https://www.performanceaudio.com/it...al-1-4-stereo-phone-plug-nickel-silver/10560/

    You can even find better prices than those.

    I have recently switched to Amphenol connectors... as good as Neutrik.
    Amphenol ACPS-GB 1/4" TRS at 1.65$ each!
    https://www.redco.com/Amphenol-ACPS-GB.html

     
  20. Anje

    Anje Supporting Member

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    For what it worth, another option I like besides the classic Mogami is the Gotham Quad cables, been using them for all studio-type & line level rig cabling.
     

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