Hey Jack Zucker Theory question for you

Discussion in 'Playing and Technique' started by Tag, Jul 29, 2004.


  1. Tag

    Tag Gold Supporting Member

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    I take it the Lydian Scale is used over the maj7 chord because all 7 tones are resting areas. The #11 does not create tension like the natural 11. Now if we are in G major, and have a D7 chord aproaching the Gmaj, the flat 5 sub gives us A flat 7. In the purest sense, that is A flat Mixolydian. I alwyas group the II-IV-V-VII chords together as you know, so maturally I play a lot of F# Lydian (the same as A flat Mixolydian) lines over that flat 5 chord. (A flat7). What this is actually doing, is giving you the most half step resolutions into the I (G Maj7) chord, correct?? (The half step being the strongest resolution) I meanF# Lydian to G Lydian, every resolution is the strongest! (Each chord tone resolves up 1\2 step.) Now what I am finding, is what sounds great, is to use the same basic theory, but in reverse. Instead of using the A flat7 (flat 5 of D), use A flat Lydian. This gives you a 1\2 step resolution going down on every chord tone. (A flat lydian, resolving to G Lydian) It sounds great, and I have gotten it from Benson lines. Is there any theory that explains this, or rule?? I have never heard of it, but it is used all the time, and sounds smooth as glass. Basically the same thing, and as Martino and kenny garrett do all the time, is use E flat DORIAN over the D7, instead of the typical Eflat Melodic minor. Then the E flat Dorian moves up 1\2 step to E Dorian on the G Maj7 chord. (E Dorian-same as G Lydian). Gives that upward 1\2 step resolution again.
    Anybodys thoughts would be greatly appreciated!
     
  2. EricT

    EricT Member

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    My guess is that it's just the famous "up/down a half step on dominant chords" trick . At least that's the way I think about it, never seen it explained in theoretic terms...:)
     
  3. Tag

    Tag Gold Supporting Member

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    Thats the simplest way to look at it for sure! The thing is the A flat lydian to the G Maj7.....That does not fit the traditional "tritone sub" thing, and I have never heard it taught. Its something I figured out on my own that is udes all the time in jazz, and is never talked about. I wonder if there is some theory that Jack may know of. (Building a Dom 7 on every whole tone note for instance). This would give you a Bflat7 chord, which then I would use A flat Lydian against. Dont know if that is a rule or not...just pulling at straws.
     
  4. jzucker

    jzucker Supporting Member

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    To avoid the mediocrity of Mixolydian, this is what I'm teaching my son as the basic rules of dominant chords:

    • If a 7th chord resolves up a 4th, use a melodic minor off the 5th (good) or off the b9 (better)
    • If a 7th chord does not resolve up a 4th, use melodic minor off the 5th

    Of course, rules are made to be broken but those are the basics for dom7 chords.

    So, if the progression is:

    | C7 | Fmaj7 |

    You would think:

    | Gm7 C7 | Fmaj7 | (good)

    or
    | Dbm7 Gb7 | Fmaj7 | (better)

    In the case of a blues where the 2nd chord is a 7th but it does not resolve up a 4th: (C7 in a G blues)

    | G7 | C7 |

    You would think (for the C7)

    | G7 | Gm7 C7 |

    Of course, you can also use:

    | Dm7 G7 | Gm7 C7 | or | Abm7 Db7 | Gm7 C7 |

    And lastly, you can always use the melodic minor over any min7 chord. The 7th of a min7 chord in a ii v sequence is simply a suspension of the 3rd of the 7th chord. Therefore, you can freely substitute the melodic minor for the dorian.
     
  5. Tom Gross

    Tom Gross Supporting Member

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    That's the way Emily Remler explained it.
     
  6. Tag

    Tag Gold Supporting Member

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    Hey Jack,
    I was hoping to get a little deeper than that. I automatically play off of those minors on a Dom 7th chord I want to alter anyway. Looking to approach the one chord from a different angle. I hear you doing it so many ways. I have heard Stan Getz and Mark Whitfield play over Gmin7-C7-Bmin, over the progression Amin7-D7-Gmaj7. My thinking is that since you can approach any tonic chord from a fifth above, they are seeing the Bmin7 as tonic (Same as GMaj7), and playing the flat 5 sub of F#7 (the 5 of the Bmin) which is C7 then resolving to the Bmin for the Gmaj7! Thats wicked cool, and sounds really out there. Still it makes melodic sense. I have no idea if this is the "right" way to look at it or not....... Trying to look at new ways to approach things, as Im in a big rut. :(
     
  7. jzucker

    jzucker Supporting Member

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    Tag, you're right on. That C7 is an old Bird trick. He thought of it as a Bbdim7 chord (same as C7b9) and would play an Amin lick followed by a Bbdim7 lick followed by the Bm7 lick or Bm7b5 if resolving to a dom7 chord in a blues progression.

    When I use that tonality I'm thinking F#7alt so I would use G Melodic minor but I also like to use B harmonic minor and of course the diminished scale there.

    Jaz
     
  8. Tag

    Tag Gold Supporting Member

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    Thanks Jack!! AMAZING! I actually figured something out on my own. :D I heard those lines and it sounded wicked while I was driving several months ago listening to Whitfield.. I heard the same "type" of sound (I thought) a while later listening to Stan Getz "Apassianado" (spelling). I love that recording. Getz plays his A$$ off in a more pop type setting. If you have it, check out the tune "Amourous cat". I dont think its possible to play with any more feeling than that. His entire personality is dripping out of the horn in that Getz romatic style........ Anyway, my ear caught it, I figured it out, and it took me a while to find something that made sense theoretically.. My next clip I am going to use it on every single II-V-I! :eek: By the time Im done, no one will EVER want to hear it again. :cool:
     
  9. EricT

    EricT Member

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    I'd love to hear that, Tag, I got a little bit dizzy trying to follow Jack's explanations..:) Would be nice hearing it, not just reading it!
     
  10. jzucker

    jzucker Supporting Member

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    I'll try to include that on my video.

    Another cool sub/resolution for Am7 D7...

    Play F#7 alt B7 Alt to Emin7. You could use G melodic minor to C melodic minor to E dorian. Gives you a cool lydian sound...
     
  11. Tag

    Tag Gold Supporting Member

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    Very cool Jack! We do think a lot alike! Thats why I group Gmaj-Eminor-Bmin all together. They are all tonics, and thus can all be approached from a fifth, or half step(flat 5 sub) above. (As well as others) The E minor is just the relative minor of G Maj. A Benson Favorite, and one that is real easy for me to hear and play, is C7 min, (subed for Amin7) F7 (subed for D7) to either GMaj7, Bmin7, or E min 7. (All those three chords are the same basic tonality, and have the same function...tonic. This is exactly where I would hope you would go. I need to incorperate these more at will. I use them ocassionally, but I have to "think" about them first while I am approaching them during playing. Thats when you can hear the time and feel dissapear in my playing.:mad: Seperates the men from the boys.
     
  12. Tag

    Tag Gold Supporting Member

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    Hey Eric, Jacks just saying he approaches the Bmin (which you know is just an extension of Gmaj7) from its 5 chord F#7. He alters it for more tension, one choice would be G Melodic minor, which he favors. I usually use G dorian over that F#7, probably because thats what my favorite players do for the most part (Garrett, Martino, Benson) and its in my ear. I also LOVE the flated 7 in the dorian, that gives you that maj7 tone (in this case F) against the F# Dom7 chord. That note is nothing more than the flat 5 of the B minor chord you are approaching, and gives you a REAL bluesy feel which I love. Probably why Benson uses it so much.
     
  13. EricT

    EricT Member

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    Yeah, I know that stuff, I like to use the altered scale in that situation.
    What I didn't get was how you came from Amin7-D7-Gmaj7 to Gmin7-C7-Bmin, but after reading your post one more time, I understand it..:)
    I'll definitely try dorian a half step up, sounding more like Benson isn't a bad idea at all:D

    Oh, and I'll try that down a min3rd thingie that Jack suggested. Is there any theory behind that one? I understand that Gmaj7 and Emin7 share the same function, but the other subs..?

    Thanks, it's great for me to learn from such accomplished players as you two!
     
  14. jzucker

    jzucker Supporting Member

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    Eric,

    Which sub were you asking about specifically?
     
  15. EricT

    EricT Member

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    This one:
    Am7-D7-Gmaj7 ---> F#7-B7-Em7

    Do you just sub Emin7 for Gmaj7, and then omit Am7-D7 for a II-V in E instead(subbing the F#m7 for a F7)?
     
  16. Tag

    Tag Gold Supporting Member

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    Im not sure how jack looks at it, but as I always say, GMaj7-Emin7 and B Min7 are all tonic chords in the key of G Maj. You can always approach ANY tonic chord from a 5th above. Therefore you can approach the Emin from the 5th above which is B7 (add the II chord and its F#min7-B7) or approach the B minor chord from the fifth above which is f#7. (Add the II chord and its C#min7-F#7) You can also use the flat 5 subs on both of them. Then you can make the II chord a 7#9 which is just approaching the V from its V, and use the flat 5 Sub for that as well. It just keeps going, and thats how you get a lot of that chromatic movement.
     
  17. jzucker

    jzucker Supporting Member

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    I don't think I quite said that. I said, I use F#7Alt to B7 to Em7 as a sub for the Am7 D7 Gmaj7.

    The F#7Alt suggests a G diminished scale (though the G dim has a D# and the F#7 Alt has a D Natural).

    Try This:

    Am D7 | Gdim7 Gmaj7 |

    What you're trying to create is the sound of the Gdim7. The F#7alt is just one way to do that.

    Let me know if you need more info.
     
  18. EricT

    EricT Member

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    Thanks, that's exactly how I was thinking.
     
  19. EricT

    EricT Member

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    Ok, I think I understand. But you can always substitute a dominant chord with an altered dominant, right? So the way I and Tag is thinking makes sense as well?

    One thing my teacher taught me recently was to use the dim chord as a "fill" for a maj7 chord when comping, like this:
    C6/9 Cdim7 Cmaj7
    |----------------------|
    |----3-----4-----5----|
    |----2-----3-----4----|
    |----2-----4-----5----|
    |----3-----3-----3----|
    |----------------------|

    Same princinple as what you're describing, I guess.
     
  20. TonyV

    TonyV Member

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    No, if the dominant is functioning as a secondary dominant or a flat five sub you should not play an altered version. You can play an extention, 9 ,11,13



    For example:

    You would not want to play a G7b5b9 as the I7 chord in a 12 bar blues progression, however in bar 4 you could play an altered G7 as there it will function as the V7 of the IV7 in bar 5. For instance playing a G7b5b9 in bar 4 beat 4 leads nicely to the C7 in bar 5.

    If a Db7 is used to sub for a G7 it functions as an altered G7 so you would not play a Db7b5b9, that would defeat the purpose of the flat five sub.
     

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