Hey Jack Zucker Theory question for you

jzucker

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Tony's exactly right. Think about the rules/suggestions I posted earlier. If a 7th chord moves up a forth, you can treat it as an altered dominant chord with extensions based on the melodic minor up a half step (known as super locrian)

This gives you b9,#9,b5,b13

If the chord moves in any other direction, harmonize with the melodic minor off the 5th (known as lydian b7). This gives you extensions of 9,#11, 13.

These are just guidelines of course. Hendrix sometimes played a #9b13 chord for the IV chord in a G blues but generally speaking, the guidelines Tony and I have suggested are the starting points.
 

Tag

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Originally posted by TonyV
If a Db7 is used to sub for a G7 it functions as an altered G7 so you would not play a Db7b5b9, that would defeat the purpose of the flat five sub.
]

Right, Those tensions would then basically just give you the Dom V chord again, correct?
 

EricT

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1,010
Originally posted by TonyV
No, if the dominant is functioning as a secondary dominant or a flat five sub you should not play an altered version. You can play an extention, 9 ,11,13



For example:

You would not want to play a G7b5b9 as the I7 chord in a 12 bar blues progression, however in bar 4 you could play an altered G7 as there it will function as the V7 of the IV7 in bar 5. For instance playing a G7b5b9 in bar 4 beat 4 leads nicely to the C7 in bar 5.

If a Db7 is used to sub for a G7 it functions as an altered G7 so you would not play a Db7b5b9, that would defeat the purpose of the flat five sub.
Thanks for clearing that up!
 

markp

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Great thread I am still trying to figure out where everyone is comeing from,but I did pick up a couple things already.
 

EricT

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Just one last question(or several, really...), to see if I can put this to practice...
Let's look at the first lines of There Will Never Be Another You:
Ebmaj7 | Ebmaj7 | Dm7b5 | G7 | Cm7 | F7 | Bbm7 | Eb7 | Abmaj7 |

The G7 cannot be altered. The progression goes up a fourth, but doesn't resolve. So a possible scale choice here is either G mixolydian or D melodic minor.
Sidestep: Is this a sub for a Gm7, the III of Eb?

The F7 cannot be altered either. Again, up a fourth, but no resolving.

The Eb7 otoh, resolves to Abmaj7, so it can be altered.

But when I'm playing this song, I don't think it sounds out of place to use altered lines on G7 and F7, so what is it I'm not getting here..?:confused:
 

Tag

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41,377
Originally posted by EricT
Just one last question(or several, really...), to see if I can put this to practice...
Let's look at the first lines of There Will Never Be Another You:
Ebmaj7 | Ebmaj7 | Dm7b5 | G7 | Cm7 | F7 | Bbm7 | Eb7 | Abmaj7 |

The G7 cannot be altered. The progression goes up a fourth, but doesn't resolve. So a possible scale choice here is either G mixolydian or D melodic minor.
Sidestep: Is this a sub for a Gm7, the III of Eb?

The F7 cannot be altered either. Again, up a fourth, but no resolving.

The Eb7 otoh, resolves to Abmaj7, so it can be altered.

But when I'm playing this song, I don't think it sounds out of place to use altered lines on G7 and F7, so what is it I'm not getting here..?:confused:
This is simple. You start out in the key of Eb right? What are the tonic chords in Eb Maj I always say group together? EbMaj7 C Min7 and Gmin7 right? (The I-III and VI chords) The DMin7b5 and G7 going to the Cmin are the II-V of the tonic Cmin chord right? (Remember we said you could approach ANY tonic chord from the fifth above?) Of course you can alter that Dom 7. (G7) If you used the flat 5 sub for G7 (C#7) thats what you would not want to alter. To make it REALY simple, you can still just play a II-V (Fmin7-Bb7) back to EbMaj over the Dmin7flat5- G7-C min. Dexter Gordon and Stan Getz do this all the time. All that is is substituting II-Vs back to tonic areas. You could also play A min7flat5-D7-Gmin7! (Again, the G min7 is a tonic just like EbMaj7, and you can approach ANY tonic area from a fifth above!) If you use that sub, dont alter.(In simple terms, usually dont alter a sub, because the sub is giving you the altered notes over the original chord!) For the same reasons, you can alter the F7 and Eb 7.
 

jzucker

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20,962
Originally posted by EricT
Just one last question(or several, really...), to see if I can put this to practice...
Let's look at the first lines of There Will Never Be Another You:
Ebmaj7 | Ebmaj7 | Dm7b5 | G7 | Cm7 | F7 | Bbm7 | Eb7 | Abmaj7 |

The G7 cannot be altered. The progression goes up a fourth, but doesn't resolve. So a possible scale choice here is either G mixolydian or D melodic minor.
Sidestep: Is this a sub for a Gm7, the III of Eb?

The F7 cannot be altered either. Again, up a fourth, but no resolving.

The Eb7 otoh, resolves to Abmaj7, so it can be altered.

But when I'm playing this song, I don't think it sounds out of place to use altered lines on G7 and F7, so what is it I'm not getting here..?:confused:
Tag's right but I'm not sure his explanation was very clear.

You can alter the G7, F7 and Eb7 in this chord progression using the melodic minor up a half step (super locrian).

The way I always think of those tones is that I'm playing the tritone ii-v so in the example above you have the dm7b5 G7 Cm7 and I would sub Abm7 Db7 Cm7. The Abm7 Db7 is the tritone ii-v and the treatment would be Ab melodic minor. Note that if you try to play the tritone ii v over the tritone, you end up with the original chords again. So for Abm7 Db7 Cm7 the tritone ii v would be Dm7 G7 Cm7 which is why you typically don't use the altered chords on 7th chords that don't resolve up a 4th.
 

EricT

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1,010
Ah, so you look at the Cmin as the VI chord in Eb instead of seeing it as the II chord in Bb...I get it, thanks:)
And it shows, listening to you ear instead of your head sometimes makes sense.:AOK
 

EricT

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1,010
Originally posted by jzucker
Tag's right but I'm not sure his explanation was very clear.

You can alter the G7, F7 and Eb7 in this chord progression using the melodic minor up a half step (super locrian).

The way I always think of those tones is that I'm playing the tritone ii-v so in the example above you have the dm7b5 G7 Cm7 and I would sub Abm7 Db7 Cm7. The Abm7 Db7 is the tritone ii-v and the treatment would be Ab melodic minor. Note that if you try to play the tritone ii v over the tritone, you end up with the original chords again. So for Abm7 Db7 Cm7 the tritone ii v would be Dm7 G7 Cm7 which is why you typically don't use the altered chords on 7th chords that don't resolve up a 4th.
Thanks, your explanation makes perfect sense as well.:AOK

I'll try to make a recording of this song, would be very grateful if you guys could give me some constructive criticism!
 

TonyV

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618
Originally posted by EricT
Just one last question(or several, really...), to see if I can put this to practice...
Let's look at the first lines of There Will Never Be Another You:
Ebmaj7 | Ebmaj7 | Dm7b5 | G7 | Cm7 | F7 | Bbm7 | Eb7 | Abmaj7 |

The G7 cannot be altered. The progression goes up a fourth, but doesn't resolve. So a possible scale choice here is either G mixolydian or D melodic minor.
Sidestep: Is this a sub for a Gm7, the III of Eb?

The F7 cannot be altered either. Again, up a fourth, but no resolving.

The Eb7 otoh, resolves to Abmaj7, so it can be altered.

But when I'm playing this song, I don't think it sounds out of place to use altered lines on G7 and F7, so what is it I'm not getting here..?:confused:
The G7 is a transition chord there, it's a minor ii V i.
So the G7 can (and probably should) be altered
The F7 is also in a minor ii V i to Bb so you can alter it
The Eb7 is the V7 of Ab major so again you can alter it
If it's functioning in a ii V i you can definately alter it.
For minor ii V7 i you usually play some sort of a b9 voicing for the V7
 

jzucker

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20,962
Originally posted by EricT
Ah, so you look at the Cmin as the VI chord in Eb instead of seeing it as the II chord in Bb...I get it, thanks:)
And it shows, listening to you ear instead of your head sometimes makes sense.:AOK
The Cm7 chord is the I chord from the perspective of the Dm7b5 G7 Cm7.

Try to see each chord in terms of a little sub-unit as opposed to trying to force them all into the original or a new key. There are some subtle influences of the original key in every chord progression but it's useful to dismiss those for the purposes of learning how to play over each change as a unique unit. The ultimate example of that is countdown:

Em7 F7 Bbmaj7 Db7 Gbmaj7 A7 Dmaj7

Yes, it's the key of D but really, each chord is it's own key into itself.
 

EricT

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1,010
Yeah, I saw that after posting, but thanks for pointing it out...haven't worked as much on minor II-V-Is, what's common tricks on those? Think I've seen C harmonic minor over G7?
 

jzucker

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Originally posted by EricT
Yeah, I saw that after posting, but thanks for pointing it out...haven't worked as much on minor II-V-Is, what's common tricks on those? Think I've seen C harmonic minor over G7?
5th mode of harmonic minor is what you're referring to. That is a semi-altered treatment of a chord giving you 1,b9,3,4,5,b13,b7 in terms of extensions. Charlie Parker used that all the time. Of course, it's not limited to min7. I wouldn't get hung up on the min key so much but I'd examine the Dm7b5 chord. Tag had it right that you could use F melodic minor over that.

If you think about it, what have I told you works over G7 chords?

Min7 off the 5th, min7 off the b2 and now, min7 off the b7. Sort those and you have:

Dm7 Fm7 Abm7. See the pattern? Minor 3rds. What does each min7 suggest? It's the ii of a given V chord.

Extrapolate that out and you have

G7 (dm7) Bb7 (Fm7) Db7 (abm7) and then E7 (bm7)

This suggests that you can play 7th chords in min 3rds over any 7th chord. You have my book. Take a look at the chapter on dodecaphonics (Chapter 8)

All this stuff is in there! :)
 

Dickie Fredericks

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10,792
5th mode of harmonic minor is what you're referring to. That is a semi-altered treatment of a chord giving you 1,b9,3,4,5,b13,b7 in terms of extensions. Charlie Parker used that all the time. Of course, it's not limited to min7. I wouldn't get hung up on the min key so much but I'd examine the Dm7b5 chord. Tag had it right that you could use F melodic minor over that.

If you think about it, what have I told you works over G7 chords?

Min7 off the 5th, min7 off the b2 and now, min7 off the b7. Sort those and you have:

Dm7 Fm7 Abm7. See the pattern? Minor 3rds. What does each min7 suggest? It's the ii of a given V chord.

Extrapolate that out and you have

G7 (dm7) Bb7 (Fm7) Db7 (abm7) and then E7 (bm7)

This suggests that you can play 7th chords in min 3rds over any 7th chord. You have my book. Take a look at the chapter on dodecaphonics (Chapter 8)

All this stuff is in there! :)
Amazing!!!
 

kimock

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12,520
(A flat lydian, resolving to G Lydian) It sounds great, and I have gotten it from Benson lines. Is there any theory that explains this, or rule?? I have never heard of it, but it is used all the time, and sounds smooth as glass.
Anybodys thoughts would be greatly appreciated!
That's harmonic symmetry.

If you can just look at the intervals without concerning yourself too much with the diatonic chord names, those "two chords" are just one symmetrical arrangement of 3rds and 5ths around a center. Not two chords, one structure that expresses "one lap of G", one trip around the center, out and back.

If you're in the key of G, in order to establish G as a center, if you go up a fifth you get G D. One Five. No center. To get G back to center we go:

C. . G. . D center, up a fifth, down a fifth

E-flat. .C. .G. .D. .B Thirds up and down added

A-flat. . E-flat. .C. . G. .D. .B. .F# Fifths again, up and down.

One symmetrical stack.
All of the stuff on the right side of G, the up side, is overtonal.
All of the stuff on the left side is reciprocal, the inverse.

All the overtonal stuff is "in", the reciprocal stuff is "out".

The conceptual chunking of this concept, and how it differs in application from the diatonic naming system y'all currently misuse may best be described with the analogy of playing fetch with your dog.

In the DNS scheme when the dog is chasing the ball, when he's going out, he's got one name.
Fetch the ball A-flat, go get it A-flat!

When he catches the ball and runs back in with it, he's got a different name.
Bring it back G! C'mon home G!
Leggo the ****** ball G, etc.

From the perspective of harmony you recognize that there's only one dog doing the work, and he's just running away from you and returning.
It's not necessary to change the dogs name every time he turns around.
It's not a different dog, that's a nose and that's an asshole, sure, but it's just one dog playing fetch, goin' out, comin back.

So, when you're asking the line to go out and come back, or when you're asking for a cadence instead of two chords, you're addressing harmonic symmetry.

That's how the entire shootin' match works, all 12 notes, but only two intervals, fifths and thirds, up and down. At whatever distance from the center you choose.

peace
 

Tag

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41,377
That's harmonic symmetry.

If you can just look at the intervals without concerning yourself too much with the diatonic chord names, those "two chords" are just one symmetrical arrangement of 3rds and 5ths around a center. Not two chords, one structure that expresses "one lap of G", one trip around the center, out and back.

If you're in the key of G, in order to establish G as a center, if you go up a fifth you get G D. One Five. No center. To get G back to center we go:

C. . G. . D center, up a fifth, down a fifth

E-flat. .C. .G. .D. .B Thirds up and down added

A-flat. . E-flat. .C. . G. .D. .B. .F# Fifths again, up and down.

One symmetrical stack.
All of the stuff on the right side of G, the up side, is overtonal.
All of the stuff on the left side is reciprocal, the inverse.

All the overtonal stuff is "in", the reciprocal stuff is "out".

The conceptual chunking of this concept, and how it differs in application from the diatonic naming system y'all currently misuse may best be described with the analogy of playing fetch with your dog.

In the DNS scheme when the dog is chasing the ball, when he's going out, he's got one name.
Fetch the ball A-flat, go get it A-flat!

When he catches the ball and runs back in with it, he's got a different name.
Bring it back G! C'mon home G!
Leggo the ****** ball G, etc.

From the perspective of harmony you recognize that there's only one dog doing the work, and he's just running away from you and returning.
It's not necessary to change the dogs name every time he turns around.
It's not a different dog, that's a nose and that's an asshole, sure, but it's just one dog playing fetch, goin' out, comin back.

So, when you're asking the line to go out and come back, or when you're asking for a cadence instead of two chords, you're addressing harmonic symmetry.

That's how the entire shootin' match works, all 12 notes, but only two intervals, fifths and thirds, up and down. At whatever distance from the center you choose.

peace
Steve,
I think we are talking about 2 different things. What F# Lydian resolving to G Lydian over a D 7 chord gives you is the 3rd, b5,#5,b7,7,b9 and#9 of D7. Each one of those notes resolves up 1/2 step (the strongest resolution) to G lydian over the Gmaj7 chord. You get maximum pull to Gmaj7. In the system of 3rds and 5ths, where does the 9th and 7th come from? (I see each is a reciprocal of the other in your terms. 1 scale step above the root, one scale step below.)
 
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I take it the Lydian Scale is used over the maj7 chord because all 7 tones are resting areas. The #11 does not create tension like the natural 11. Now if we are in G major, and have a D7 chord aproaching the Gmaj, the flat 5 sub gives us A flat 7. In the purest sense, that is A flat Mixolydian.
Not mixolydian but lydian-dominant. Over a tritone substitution chord root you should play the lydian-dominant scale [1-2-3-#4-5-6-b7].
For a D7 tritone substitution, you should play Ab lydian-dominant [ab, bb, c, d, eb, f, g] or mode IV of Eb melodic minor, or D superlocrian, which are all the same notes. Since the real dominant is D7, I would stick to D superlocrian. Hence the resolution would be clearly Gmaj7.

I alwyas group the II-IV-V-VII chords together as you know, so maturally I play a lot of F# Lydian (the same as A flat Mixolydian) lines over that flat 5 chord. (A flat7). What this is actually doing, is giving you the most half step resolutions into the I (G Maj7) chord, correct?? (The half step being the strongest resolution) I meanF# Lydian to G Lydian, every resolution is the strongest! (Each chord tone resolves up 1\2 step.) Now what I am finding, is what sounds great, is to use the same basic theory, but in reverse. Instead of using the A flat7 (flat 5 of D), use A flat Lydian. This gives you a 1\2 step resolution going down on every chord tone. (A flat lydian, resolving to G Lydian) It sounds great, and I have gotten it from Benson lines. Is there any theory that explains this, or rule?? I have never heard of it, but it is used all the time, and sounds smooth as glass. Basically the same thing, and as Martino and kenny garrett do all the time, is use E flat DORIAN over the D7, instead of the typical Eflat Melodic minor. Then the E flat Dorian moves up 1\2 step to E Dorian on the G Maj7 chord. (E Dorian-same as G Lydian). Gives that upward 1\2 step resolution again.
Anybodys thoughts would be greatly appreciated!
The lydian-dominant scale is what Martino explained in that y o u t u b e video posted here in TGP some weeks ago. He said that over an altered A7 chord you could play E melodic minor (A lydian dominant), or the same scale 3rd up, that would be G melodic minor (C lydian dominant), or the same scale two 3rds. up, that would be Bb melodic minor (Eb lydian dominant that means the tritone sub of A7; or A superlocrian). That altered A7 was in the context of a minor cadence (resolving to Dm). Here you would use it in the context of a major cadence, but still the outside sound would be interesting.

Regards
 

Tag

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41,377
Not mixolydian but lydian-dominant. Over a tritone substitution chord root you should play the lydian-dominant scale [1-2-3-#4-5-6-b7].
For a D7 tritone substitution, you should play Ab lydian-dominant [ab, bb, c, d, eb, f, g] or mode IV of Eb melodic minor, or D superlocrian, which are all the same notes. Since the real dominant is D7, I would stick to D superlocrian. Hence the resolution would be clearly Gmaj7.
Right, thats what they SAY, and what you are TAUGHT, but transcribe enough, and you will see that many many times the DORIAN scale is used up a 5th and up 1/2 step from a Dom 7 chord. NOT the melodic minor, which of course translates to Mixolidian over the flat V sub, and not lydian dominant. Martino does it ALL the time, as does Benson and Trane. What that gives over a D7 chord (v5sub being Ab7) is the Db note over D7. The REASON they use that, is it (Db) is the flat V note in the key you are going to. Here it is G. It gives a blues flavor, and also a very strong pull to the tonic.



The lydian-dominant scale is what Martino explained in that y o u t u b e video posted here in TGP some weeks ago. He said that over an altered A7 chord you could play E melodic minor (A lydian dominant), or the same scale 3rd up, that would be G melodic minor (C lydian dominant), or the same scale two 3rds. up, that would be Bb melodic minor (Eb lydian dominant that means the tritone sub of A7; or A superlocrian). That altered A7 was in the context of a minor cadence (resolving to Dm). Here you would use it in the context of a major cadence, but still the outside sound would be interesting.
Yep, now go one step farther, and you get to what I am talking about. Over the A7 chord you play Emelodic (or dorian), G melodic (or dorian) Bb melodic (or dorian ) and also Db melodic (or dorian). Now look at that Db dorian. It gives you a 1/2 step resolution on every note going to the key D minor! that is the same as what i was talkking about, but using the relative minor keys instead of major keys. VERY interesting!!
 






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