Hi. I'm Randy and I like jazz. Wanna trade lessons?

Discussion in 'Playing and Technique' started by randy morser, Jul 27, 2006.

  1. randy morser

    randy morser Member

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    Blues in Bb...I may just way Bb or Eb or whatever. I mostly leave the extensions to you. The fifth bar will be an Eb7 in this case. Lot's of times that will be followed by an E diminished in the next bar and a Bb again in the bar after that and a G7 in the bar after that. Instead of the E diminished, try an E half diminished (m7b5) for two beats and an A 7 for the last two beats in that measure. Then play a Dm7 or a Dm7b5 in the next measure... bringing us to the G7 in the following measure.

    we start with a simple:
    Bb |Eb | Bb | Bb |
    Eb |Edim | Bb | G7 |
    Cm | F7 |Dm7, G7| Cm7, F7 |

    and the few simple substitutions:
    Bb |Eb, Edim | Bb | Bb7 |
    Eb |Em7b5, A7 | Dm7 | G7 |
    Cm7 | F7 |Dm7, G7| Cm7, F7 |

    The Em7b5 to A7 functions the same way the E diminished does and can also be used in the second bar. If you want to get carried away, you could even try this next bit. (I'll flesh out the rest a little more on this one too) Where you see two chords in a measure,they get two beats each. If there are four chords in a measure, they get a beat each:

    | Bb | Em7b5, A7 | Bb | Fm9, Bb7b5 |
    | Eb9 | Em7b5, A7 | Dm7, Dm7b5/Ab | G7+5, G7 |
    | Dbm9, Ab7+5b9 | Cm9, G7+5b9 |(bars 11 and 12 on next line)
    | Em7b5, A7, Dm7b5, G7+5 | Dbm9, Ab7+5b9,Cm9, G7+5b9 |

    This is one of the many ways we can augment the blues progression to give us a few more changes to work with that we don't usually get to see in a blues. There are a million possible variations and they can all be pretty fun. You can use the just parts that you like, too. You don't have to use the whole prog.
     
  2. ivers

    ivers Member

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    Cool, some very nice ideas there. Thanks, man!
     
  3. gennation

    gennation Member

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    Here's my "Common Sounds Found in Jazz" tutorial...

    http://lessons.mikedodge.com/lessons/Jazz1/Jazz1TOC.htm

    Read the "essential needs" as it has the lick to the Power Tab audio/tab/notation.

    It'll take you through: Diatonic subs, b5 subs, Diminished subs, arps, Modes, Melodic Minor Modes, Whole-tone scale, W-H tone scale, H-W tone scale, lifting other melodies from tunes and placing them in your jazz tunes, it covers a number of scales used, etc...

    It's pretty comprehensive with a lot of explanation too. BUT...it's all donw with in the context of a Jazz song...not excerpts, or idea's...but a song.

    Enjoy.
     
  4. ivers

    ivers Member

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    Keep em coming, guys!

    For a major or minor jazz blues, in for example Bb, I like to now and again explore the tension between Fm7 (substitute for Bb7) and its dominant C7, before I direct my phrasing towards some kind of altered Bb7 sound, leading towards the subdominant, Eb7 (or Ebm7, if minor blues).

    Another thing I like, rather than play the half/whole-diminished scale, is to use that scale as a fundament for creating triads. Pretty much every triad found there can be usable, for my ears at least.

    I also have a kind of 'lick' I like when leading to the subdominant from the tonic, or from dominant to the tonic, which is based on the intervals 1, b2, b5, b7, and can be played pretty straightforwards over two octaves, and sound cool. In G, where G is tonic, and we're leading to C, the subdominant, this would be G, Ab, Db, F, etc (up an octave).

    Hope at least one person understood anything of my ramblings!
     
  5. randy morser

    randy morser Member

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    wow. there's a lot there! thanks.
     
  6. randy morser

    randy morser Member

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    I love extended tag sections. I love Sonny Stitt's actics on tags. A "nice" turn-around in the key of G is from Nice Work if You Can Get It a la B7+5, E9+5, A7+5, D9+5. The diagrammed voicings would help, but I'm not sure how we could draw them. Oh well.

    I also like the tag that uses IV instead of ii and follows with the #IV diminished and then the I with the 5th in the bass to the VI. And then similarly there's the ii, #ii diminished, iii, VI. Again, IV instead of ii to iv to iii to biii diminished to ii, V, to #VI to VI is another one I like, though the first part can sound a little show-tuny in the wrong setting. That one works as an intro too.

    Hey... what's chordal jazz, anyway?
     
  7. jdiesel77

    jdiesel77 Member

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    tele any chance u have audio clips for chordal playing or for this
     
  8. randy morser

    randy morser Member

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    This is how my teacher used to teach me songs too. He'd write a different chord inversion for every note. Some times he'd have voices moving in the middle melody note too. We always called it chord melody. He studied with chuck wayne for a decade, so my approach sounds very 1940s, 50s unless I make a conscious effort to use more modern voicings.
     
  9. gennation

    gennation Member

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    Joe Pass does some serious "chordal Jazz" as does Tal Farlow.
     
  10. jamminoutloud1

    jamminoutloud1 Supporting Member

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    I'm trying to get my rhythm changes and F bebop blues under my belt much better...do you guys have any reccomendations for recordings to listen to and transcribe(besides Parker) or do you have transcriptions to share?
     
  11. StevenA

    StevenA Member

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  12. Cap'n Fingers

    Cap'n Fingers Member

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    Thanks guys!
    I'm beginning to feel like I owe $ to someone. :BEER

    Let's keep this thread going.
     
  13. randy morser

    randy morser Member

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    For a pretty accessable blues, you might try sonny stitt on tenor (he played alto too.) he's an encyclopedia of great blues licks in a jazz context. also, try transcribing solos by trombonists and bass players since it's harder for them to play faster than you can hear. there are a few coleman hawkins recordings from the 50s i listened to early on that featured a good bone player who was really tasty and accessable. major holly is my favorite bass player and a fantastic soloist. he's on a lot of hawkins stuff as well as zoot simms. and hey... there's always zoot! tenor players and the blues...

    another lesson coming soon.
     
  14. DrSax

    DrSax Member

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  15. beePee

    beePee Member

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    Cool stuff....i have a few things to post but....the editor won't let my paste from Word :(..hhhmmmmm....oh well....keep em comin'!!

    BP
     
  16. randy morser

    randy morser Member

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    It will, you just can't right-click to do it. You need to use the edit tab at the top next to file. You can use the paste thingy from there. Post away!

    Randy
     
  17. beePee

    beePee Member

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    Thanks Randy...here I go:BEER ....even though I spell checked there's still goofy mistakes I'm sure...please forgive me

    When I first learned the blues I had no idea what the progressions were or why they worked…so I was like most of the old blues guys ..who still don’t..but there is a pattern(even though they break the rules the patterns are still there.

    12 bar blues is the most common (then 16 and 8….the blues guys Like John Lee Hooker are known to play 11 and 2/8 bar blues so ....WATCH OUT!!)

    Please excuse me if you already know this…In 12 bar blues there are three 4 bar phrases.

    1st phrase = I chord
    2nd phrase =IV chord
    3rd Phrase =V chord

    Of course I can’t remember anybody doin’ this EXACT progression !!To give it more push pull /tension and release break the phrases up with the other chords. The 1st Phrase is the most flexible in that it can bear staying on the I chord for 4 bars

    Here’s the most basic and common 12 bar blues based on Glenn Millers “In The Mood”

    #1
    I=4 bars ( bars 1-4)
    IV=2 bars…(bars 5-6).. I=2 bars …(bars 7-8)
    V=2 bars…(bar 9-10) .. I=2 bars….( bars 11-12)

    He knuckles around with the bars 11-12 ( I think it’s either I-IV I or (I-IV) ( I-V) or (I-VI) (II-V) each chord is 2 beats( I can’t remember( a little help please!!)

    Here’s a few more variations:

    #2
    I=4 bars ( bars 1-4)
    IV=2 bars…(bars 5-6)…..I=2 bars …..(bars 7-8)
    V=1 bars…(bar 9)………IV=1 bar…(bar 10)…. I=2 bars…( bars 11-12)

    #3
    I=4 bars( bars 1-4)
    IV=2 bars…(bars 5-6)……..I=2 bars…(bars 7-8)
    V=2 bars….(bars 9-10)……I= 1 bar… (bar 11)…….V=1 bar (bar 12)

    #4
    I=4 bars( bars 1-4)
    IV=2 bars…(bars 5-6)……..I=2 bars….(bars 7-8)
    V=2 bars….(bars 9-10)……IV= 1 bar (bar 11)…….V=1 bar (bar 12)


    #5
    I=4 bars( bars 1-4)
    IV=2 bars…(bars 5-6)…..I=2 bars….…(bars 7-8)
    V=2 bars….(bars 9-10).…IV= 1 bar… (bar 10)…..I=1 bar(bar 11) …V=1 bar (bar 12)

    A quick change breaks up the 1st phrase and introduces the “IV” quicker

    #6
    I=1 bars……( bar 1)……IV=1 bar(bar 2)……I=2 bars(bar 3-4)
    IV=2 bars…(bars 5-6).. .I=2 bars …(bars 7-8)
    V=2 bars….(bars 9-10) .. I=2 bars….( bars 11-12)

    Here’s where some subs can come in….. here’s a quick change one I like .

    #7
    I=1 bars……( bar 1)……IV=1 bar(bar 2)……I=2 bars(bar 3-4)
    IV=2 bars…(bars 5-6).. .I=1 bar(bars 7) VI=1 bar (bar 8)
    or Sub #1
    (I-bV-V-VII) =bar 7
    (bVII-III-bIII-VI) =bar 8

    II=1 bar….(bar 9) .. V=1 bar(bar 10)….(I-VI)= bar 11..(II-V)=bar 12
    or Sub #2
    (I-bVII-VI-bIII) =bar 11
    (II-#V-V-bII) = bar 12


    I’m justa rock n roll guy so simple works good for me! For solo comping I play the chords subs with all the same shapes (7 #9)just change the bass note moved chromatically in sub #1 and the same idea in sub#2 with one variation.


    Sub #1

    E|--------------------|-------------|
    B|---7-----7----6--6-|-5---5--4--4-|
    G|---6-----6----5--5-|-4---4--3--3-|
    D|---5-----5----4--4-|-3---3--2--2-|
    A|---------6----5----|-----4--3-----|
    E|---5-------------4-|-3---------2--|

    Sub #2

    E|--------------------|--------------
    B|--13---11--10--10--|-9---9--8--7-
    G|--12---10--9---9---|-8---8--7--6-
    D|--11---9---8---8---|-7---7--6--5--
    A|--12---10--9-------|-----8--7-----
    E|---------------8----|-7---------5---

    Composers have been using the chromatic concept of ...approach any note by a half step.... for centuries but the jazz guys really exploited it to create the altered dominant harmony.

    Ooops that was longer than I thought!!!(you should see one of my other “simple’ examples!!)…

    I’d love to see some more examples of subs for 12 bar blues (....or anything!!).Thanks

    Butch Price
     
  18. Washburnmemphis

    Washburnmemphis Member

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    He reminds me of a guy I used to take lessons from. A talented guy but he would throw so many things at you all at once without explanation or context that the lesson was, as you say, nothing more than a private concert.
     
  19. randy morser

    randy morser Member

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    There's more to it than that, though. They don't all have to be block chords. The melody can be in the middle or on the bottom of the chord too. Also, the melody could be a whole note on top of the chord whilst pretty little voices move underneath it on the lower strings... and that's just the tip of the iceberg. We can reach things easily that pianists can't reach with one hand. :D

    Guitar started getting phased out of rhythm section in the mid-forties. Chuck Wayne and friends got together about that time and started working on playing the guitar like a painist would so that they didn't get phased out of work! They also did it for the love, don't get me wrong, but everybody loves to eat, too. So, they enlisted the help of Andre Segovia under the pretense of just studying the guitar. They were taking apart Revell and Debussy scores and putting a voice on a string to try to get things moving. Once they got comfortable seeing the chords and the melody that way, they were able to improvise that way without having to come up with an arrangement for each tune played a la chord melody. If they knew the melody and the chords, they were good to go. From there, they just got more and more creative. The cadre was part of Chuck Wayne's New York Jazz Guitar Symposium, which met every week in a clothing factory. Guitarists would come in to NY from all over the place and play with or for the guys who were regulars like Chuck Wayne, Carl Barry, Jack Wilkins, Les Paul, Gene Burtoncini (I think), and others. But there were many many more who would stop by because they were on the road with so and so. Herb Ellis, Barney Kessel, Mundell Lowe, Tal Farlow and others came, from what I've heard. This was a real community and it has its roots at the beginning of jazz guitar. I know about it because my teacher studied with Chuck Wayne and I also spoke with Jack Wilkins about it once or twice. I guess this might count as a lesson too.
     
  20. randy morser

    randy morser Member

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    Haha. I meant onehanded. We can reach well over 2 1/2 octaves while they need two hands to do that. You knew what I meant you abacus wielding old cruster.;) We can walk a bass line, hold pedal tones on either side of the melody that we are playing, and get the chords out in 2 1/2 octaves all at the same time. They can't. Sheesh, Tele.:D
     

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