HIbernia Nitro Paint

Discussion in 'The Small Company Luthiers' started by 71strat, Mar 19, 2015.

  1. 71strat

    71strat Member

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    Who can do a Professional Body and Neck Finish using this paint, Primer, Thinner ect.

    I have a Musikraft 1 piece Swamp Ash Body and 2 piece maple Cap Neck

    No Relicing or Tinting.


    This Is the REAL DEAL 100% Correct Formula for Nitro as used from the 20's - early 60's.

    They also have Era correct Acrylic.

    www.[B]hiberniaauto[/B]restorers.com
     
  2. '59_Standard

    '59_Standard Member

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    Where on their website does it say the lacquer formula is period correct from the 20s - 60s? Serious question because I couldn't see it on there.

    Edit - Their website
     
  3. 71strat

    71strat Member

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    HEMMINGS TOO

    The Gruhn of Vintage Restoration

    Actually it is from the 30's- Early 60's.

    VINTAGE PAINT
    When your restoration calls for complete authenticity, your choices are limited. The nitrocellulose lacquers of the 1930s-1950s are just not legal in enough places to be worth manufacturing in any quantity. Fortunately, there are some suppliers who are licensed to ship it to you.

    It is important to note when contemplating using old lacquers that they are no less dangerous than modern products; this stuff will resolidify in your lungs. The primary suppliers for nitrocellulose lacquer are:


    Hibernia Auto Restorations
    973-627-1882
    www.hiberniaautorestorers.com
    Nitrocellulose Lacquer: 1 gallon, black: $100.00
    1 gallon, all other colors: $150.00

    Hibernia got a License to Both Manufacture and Sell these Paints in 1977-78 and also to Distribute to All 50 States, DC and Canada.

    Problem Solved. Hibernia called 20 minutes ago.

    Hibernia said they would do the Body and Neck.
     
  4. '59_Standard

    '59_Standard Member

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    I think it may depend on how you want to read it.

    See below, it says color chips back to the late 20's and paint sales and mixing,.... not manufacturing.

    "We have been in the paint sales and custom mixing of Nitrocellulose and Acrylic Automotive Lacquers since the late 1970’s. Our Lacquers are available legally for sale/use in all 50 states and Washington D.C. We have color chips for both domestic and import automobiles dating back to the late 1920’s."

    I'd suspect they use later-day Nitro to their spec, possibly. I suspect they don't manufacture it, either. Mix/match it and sell it, sure.

    Some of those of Nitro's had lead in them.
     
  5. 71strat

    71strat Member

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    You can Still BUY Lead Additive for your Old Car Engine. Many do it if they use it as a Daily Driver for motors that required Leaded Gas.

    Whatever it has in it Can be Manufactured if you have the proper License. Just in Small Amounts.

    I don't know what is so hard to read here ??

    See Below...

    Notice the words... COMPLETE AUTHENTICITY... Also the part where it says the OLD LACQUERS are just as bad as MODERN 1's.

    And also the Clincher..

    They AINT LEGAL in some Commercial Applications... Depending on the STATE LAW.

    nitrocellulose lacquers of the 1930s-1950s are just not legal in enough places to be worth manufacturing in any quantity

    I think its simple to understand they are Implicitly Stating this is the Real Deal Nitro and Acrylic Formulas.

    Also this is HEMMINGS talking about the paint.

    Hemmings has been around since 1954 or so.

    It would be False Advertisement and Fraud, Theft By Deception ect... If someone put this finish on their $1,000,000 Car and expecting them to be true to their word that this is an Era Correct Finish.

    Also the Nitro is CHEAP compared to the Acrylic..

    The Acrylic is almost $800 a GALLON !!! $793!!!!!!

    I also don't think they have paint for $800 a Gallon that is a Fraud.

    They would have been out of business Decades ago IMHO.


    VINTAGE PAINT
    When your restoration calls for Complete Authenticity, your choices are limited. The nitrocellulose lacquers of the 1930s-1950s are just not legal in enough places to be worth manufacturing in any quantity. Fortunately, there are some suppliers who are licensed to ship it to you.

    It is important to note when contemplating using old lacquers that they are no less dangerous than modern products; this stuff will resolidify in your lungs.


    Hibernia got the License to Manufacture and Sell the paint to ALL 50 States , DC and Canada in the 70's.

    It is Specialty Paint and not subject to EPA when made in Small Quantities and used as specified By Law in Each Individual state.

    I had a guy Email me back from California saying he would do it but he shoots to many bodies per month... 150.... and is a Commercial Business so he Excceds the Limit.

    He told me Small Limited Non Commercial home type can shoot it in Cali.

    It Is Legal in New Jersey to shoot this paint. Commercially. They just have to Capture the fumes.

    Also Hibernia have been in business since 1964.

    They started with he Paint and Distribution License in the 70's.

    Hibernia has been in business 51 Years.
     
  6. '59_Standard

    '59_Standard Member

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    You tell me... - perhaps between the lines...



    Complete authenticity doesn't have to mean its the exactly chemically the same. Sure its not stuffed full of plasticizer like Gibsons. They were saying its Nitro - and for some the words Nitro mean whatever they want in their mind...

    Is the "modern" comment referring to later-day Clear coats of 2K? Who knows... Neither are healthy for you.


    Well Nitro isn't is it in some states. Regardless of its "authenticity"...



    Hold on, you said they Manufacture it... Now its not worth manufacturing in quantities...


    It might be simple if they expicably state: Our Formula is 100% manufactured to 1920's -50's Formula. It DOESN'T.......which is why I asked.



    Um, no. If they use Nitro it'd still be authentic in the sense. Its Nitro.


    I'm not sure what that has to do with the price of fish...


    I can see you are very Romantic about nitro and the mojo it will give if its of another formula but, all I've asked is: where have they stated its 100% made to the 1920's - 50's recipe.

    Authentic and blah blah blah doesn't cut it for me. Sorry. Devil's Advocate an 'all...
     
  7. 71strat

    71strat Member

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    First let me state..

    You are the 1 talking MOJO. I don't believe in any of that crap. Im almost 60 years old man. You aint talkin to some kid. . Im almost 60. WTF is MOJO ??? You tell me ??? I have no definition for it as its not in my vocabulary. Sorry.

    You know what Jim Morrison meant by Mojo Risin ??? That's Mojo to me.

    Mr. Mojo Risin'
    Got to keep on risin'
    Risin' risin'
    Come on risin' risin'
    Whoa! Wang! Bang!

    Nitro is Legal in 50 states.. DC and Canada... Just not Commercially for mass usage. You can shoot your own though.

    Why would you even bring up Mojo ?? That also has nothing to do with the price of fish. Also Nitro is NOT NITRO. Ask my buddy who finishes furniture from the White House if all NItro is the same.

    When they say Era Correct Nitro Lacquers they better mean it. Just like the Modern Thinners and Paints wont work with this stuff. It must be different or Modern Materials would work with it..

    But it DOESNT. I was Warned by Hibernia.

    I asked him ( Furniture Buddy ) today if Nitro is Nitro..

    He says 100% Absoutly NOT. Hes been doing it since 1958. I believe him. He also does stuff for Museums. Hundreds of years old. Irreplaceable stuff you cant even put a price on.. This guy knows finishing and whatever he tells me as fact I believe him . Period. No Devils Advocate.

    But I understand where your coming from and don't want to start crap. Devils advocate is always good and a lot of people are gullible. But I did research this paint and I can find no place that states that it isn't what they say it is.. If you can show me otherwise I would be Glad to check it out. But until then its all just your opnion, and the guys at Hibernia, Hemmings and my furniture buddy all tell me its the real deal.

    And Ive Looked for Hours.

    Its just really really good paint they put on $1,000,000 cars.

    Also they don't make it in quantities because they basically make most of it it to order. The guy at Hibernia... NICK.... Call him.. told me he has sold so much Fiesta Red to guitar finishers that he has the Formula Memorized.

    At $800 a friggin Gallon for Acrylic paint they are a small business and aren't going to tie up huge amounts of money for paint to just Lay Around. How many acrylic colors are there ??? At $800 a Gallon ??
    And thats not even talking about the Nitro.
    Its Specialty Paint. They don't sell enough to make huge quantities. Simple.

    But charging someone $800 a Gallon on False Premise does have to do with the price of fish. Its Fraud and Theft by Deception at any price.

    If they did it over the Phone, Across State Line, Use the Mail to Send the paint + Send it over a State Line ?? Talk over the phone across a state line. I don't think you've thought this through.

    Those are ALL Federal Offenses except the Fraud and the Theft By Deception. So you will do your State Time First and then you will have to go to the Feds and finish up. They would be guilty of both State and Federal Offenses.

    When you claim something is 100% Accurate ERA CORRECT you better be able to back it up. Ive worked in a Law Office for 35 years. The attorney is a Patent Attorney who happens to be my Uncle. When you say 100% you better mean it when youre dealing with $10,000+++++ paint jobs.

    Actually it wasn't the 20's. I was mistaken. It was the 30's.

    HEMMIMGS has it on their site when they were reviewing Paint for cars.

    The above article on Vintage Original paint is from Hemmings. Not Hibernia.

    The reason they cant make it in large quantities is because they have limits on how much they can make and use. It is a Specialty paint and heavily regulated by the EPA.

    Its not legal to Commercially shoot in every state. BUT they can send to every state, DC and Canada, and it Is Legal for use by NON Commercial Applications in every state.

    Im not obsessing over it I would just like to have this paint. I figure its good enough for $1,000,000 Rolls Royce ect. Its plenty good for my Strat.


    I asked the guys at Hibernia today and they told me they are indeed the original chemical formulas. So this backs up Hemmings.

    Modern Thinner and Clear also wont work with this stuff. Hibernia also warned me about that. But it will work with Modern Grain Filler for Swamp Ash as grain filler hasn't changed.

    A guy that does Antique Furniture turned me on to Hibernia. This guy has done stuff for the White House. He did a Chair that James Monroe Ordered for the White House.

    The family business has been going since 1946.

    We were concerned that this furniture, which was ordered for the White House by President James Monroe, would be carefully handled. Your TLC was very much appreciated and we are pleased that on the strength of your work on our chairs the curators at the White House commissioned you to undertake similar restoration on three of their original King chairs.


    I wanted you to know how pleased we were with the restoration you did on the pair of William King arm chairs from the DAR Museum collection.

    Again, thank you - it is rare to find a craftsman of your ability and sensitivity. We look forward to working with you again in the future."

    Sincerely,
    James H. Johnson
    Curator, Period Rooms
    The Daughters of the American Revolution Museum


    The Furniture Restoration guy is also going to paint my guitar and Im Very happy about that and he quoted me a killer price.

    With all the above evidence as to the Authenticity of this paint I see NO evidence to the contrary.

    He also syas this is the Real Deal Paint.

    He also told me that Reranch and the like are NOT anywhere close to original Nitro formula. This guy has been doing this since 1958 and his dad started the business 12 years before that.

    So Im going to believe This Guy, Hemmings, and Hibernia when they ALL tell me this is the same chemically as the original.

    Hibernia also said they would do it but couldn't give me an exact price as they had never done a guitar so I couldn't go for that at $115 an hour.
     
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2015
  8. DamianP

    DamianP Member

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    Was all nitrocellulose lacquer the same back in the vintage period? Did all manufacturers make identically formulated lacquer for all applications throughout the entirety of the period?
     
  9. scott

    scott Supporting Member

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    Canada Eh?
    $800 a gallon?
     
  10. 71strat

    71strat Member

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    Guitar companies used Car Paint. The codes and formulas are well known. They quit making the original formulas in the 70's.

    I really cant tell you technically between the different car companies paint compositions. Fender used Ford Colors. Gibson used GM Paint colors. That's about as I know about it.

    Fender used Dupont paint codes but not always Dupont paint.

    Hibernia got a License to Manufacture, Spray and Distrubte this type of paint in 1978. Hibernia has been in business since 1964. Long before this stuff terminated. 14 years before. So them being in the Vintage Restoration Business made them see the need to keep these old paints and formulas around especially when they stopped making them.

    Much of the difference in this stuff is the other chemicals in the soup.

    And Im not saying theyre better. Im just saying they are chemically the same as the old formulas. Better is up to each individual.

    I know for Car Finishes this Nitro is considered the most beautiful of all car paint at the car shows where they have $1,000,000 Automobiles. That's good enough for me.. Even if it wasn't Era Correct.

    I just feel its great paint and beautiful paint that is very hard to get and apply. Nothing more. No Mojo to it ect.

    I don't know why people want to infer just because someone wants a particulat thing it may sometimes infer the person seeks Mojo.

    I just seek a nice finish. But it does wear faster than normal, is Not Durable and is high maintenance, the clear top coat yellows. All the reasons they got rid of it in the first place are all the reasons I want it.

    From what I gather... And I clain NO Ability ot knowledge about paint.

    The only thing I know about this type of paint is what Hemmings says, Hibernia and a guy that restores and Refinishes Cherished Museum Pieces that cant be replaced.

    Out of sheer Logic and Common Sense.. Im gonna believe these guys. Especially when Ive looked around and not seen anything saying Hibernia is committing fraud by misrepresentation. And its on $1,000,000 cars.

    Theres a pretty good read on Fender Paint.


    Here are all the custom colors, their original paint type (remember, Duco is nitrocellulose, Lucite is acrylic), the years Fender used them, and what cars they originated. The "Car Year" column represents the years this color was available for the Car Make listed. Note some colors were also used on other makes within the same manufacturer, but with different names and for different years. These colors will have the same paint number, but a different paint name. See the individual color descriptions for a list of these paint names. Also note all metallic colors, except Candy Apple Red, are single-step metallic colors. That is, the actual color and the metallic particles are contained together in a single paint. This minimizes the application steps.

    Fender's Original Custom Colors Color Paint
    Type Org. Dupont
    Number Org. Ditzler/
    PPG Number Replacement
    Dupont# Fender
    Years Car
    Years Car
    Make Lake Placid Blue metallic Lucite 2876-L 11711 882-91242L 60-73 58 Cadillac Daphne Blue Duco 2804 12742 246-91999 60-65 58 Cadillac Shoreline Gold metallic Lucite 2935-L 21722 882-92654L 60-65 59-60 Pontiac #WA2553 Olympic White Lucite 2818-L 8144 886-92227L 60-80 58-62 Cadillac Burgundy Mist metallic Lucite 2936-L 50536 882-92697L 60-65 59 Oldsmobile Inca Silver metallic Lucite 2436-L 31425 882-56303L 60-65 57-59 Chevy Corvette #WA2608 Fiesta Red Duco 2219-H 70618 246-59548H
    93-59548Z 60-69 56 Ford Tbird #M0530 Dakota Red Duco 2590-H 70757 246-90723H 60-69 58 Cadillac Blue Ice metallic Lucite 4692L 12164 181-97547 65-69 65-66 Ford #M1269 Firemist Silver metallic Lucite 4576L 12883 65-71 64 Cadillac #WA3263 Firemist Gold metallic Lucite 4579L 22422 65-71 64-65 Cadillac #WA3264 Charcoal Frost metallic Lucite 4618L 32390 181-97334 65-69 65-66 Lincoln #M1744 Ocean Turquoise metallic Lucite 4607L 12893 181-97323 65-71 65 Mercury #M1731 Teal Green metallic Lucite 4297L 11921 882-83482L
    181-17008 65-69 65-68 Lincoln #M1070 Black Duco 1711 9000 60-84 all yrs all makes Sonic Blue Duco 2295 11475 246-59593 60-72 56 Cadillac Shell Pink Duco 2371 21108 93-59842
    246-59842 60-63 56 Desoto Foam Green Duco 2253 41940 246-59234 60-69 56 Buick Surf Green Duco 2461 42068 93-90147 60-65 57 Chevy Sherwood Green metallic Duco 2526-H 42038 202-90844H
    181-15170 60-65 57 Mercury #M0760 Candy Apple Red n/a none none none 63-73 n/a n/a Color Paint
    Type Org. Dupont
    Number Org. Ditzler/
    PPG Number Replacement
    Dupont# Fender


    Hibernia has all this and more. All the way back to the 30's



    Lacquer: going, going, gone.

    • To this point we have discussed only lacquer. But what if you live in California or the other forbidden lacquer zones? Or, what if you read this article after the date automotive acrylic lacquer will be (supposedly) banned for sale across the U.S.?
      For me, living in the Detroit-metro area certainly makes finding lacquer easier. Detroit is one of the last areas in the U.S. to loose lacquer. Originally, automotive lacquer was supposed to be banned by June 1, 1995 in the the state of Michigan. But this date was postponed (unfortunately auto lacquer is now no longer available in Michigan). The proposed Michigan law was similar to other state laws (such as California) that banned lacquer. But the paint shops apparently had enough political "pull" to delay this from happening here in Michigan. But they didn't have enough political power to stop it from happening nationally. Starting January 1, 1997, automotive acrylic lacquer was supposed to be banned for sale by the EPA nationally. But again, this date was pushed back.
      Originally, a compromise on this law was going to be enacted. This would make it illegal to use automotive acrylic lacquer, but not to sell it. This is known as a "user's" law. Since I don't see too many EPA guys hanging out around my shop, this would essentially be a token outlaw of acrylic lacquer. You could still buy it, and frankly, who's gonna stop you from spraying it? But what really killed lacquer was the lack of demand. The current low VOC urethanes are so popular that paint suppliers can no longer justify keeping lacquer in stock. Hence it is no longer for sale.

    • Note: current laws do not apply to clear "furniture" nitrocellulose lacquer. You should still be able to buy this product indefinately. Apparently furniture refinishers aren't held to the same environmental laws as automotive refinishers. This is probably because there's far less furniture restoration volume than there's auto body shops fixing dents.
    Also knowing Fender procured paint from different sources but used the Dupont Codes. They say that is 1 of the reasons that some guitars of the supposed same color look different.
     
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2015
  11. IPLAYLOUD

    IPLAYLOUD Member

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    My g/f sprays Nitro as correct as possible.
    She does lots of repair work for Mandolin Brothers in NY, she restored a Mandolin that's in the Smithsonian (varnished, though, I believe).

    Almost every year, something is "changed" in the formulas because of EPA requirements.
    You need to have the correct equipment or it can kill you.
    She has the right set-up, the guy in his garage doesn't...but he is only spraying a body every so often, not several weekly.
    There is only 1 place local that we know of where I can get her the ingredients she wants, and when I ask for it, they say "Oh, the guitar lady needs paint!".

    Local rules and laws abound. From what I understand, you cannot get variance any longer in NYC areas to shoot real Nitro Lacquer. She has gotten calls from Sadowsky and Suhr to do work for them.

    Dawn will mix whatever you want as close as she can get. She knows how to spray correctly, sand between coats, and proper cure time.
    The days of getting EXACTLY what existed are gone. You just can't get the materials.

    PLUS...not many people want to pay what her work is actually WORTH. Time = Money, and it takes many, many hours to do it correctly. After quoting a price, guys say "but you're just spraying paint on it!", like it takes 5 minutes.
    She prefers to do repairs now, although a full restoration makes her very happy...because she is bringing an old guitar back to life.

    Are you looking to do an EXACT EXACT finish on a vintage guitar?
    In all honesty, I read your posts and was confused (and a little dizzy).
     
  12. IPLAYLOUD

    IPLAYLOUD Member

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    Naked Body Guitars

    www.NakedBodyGuitars.com

    Facebook: NAKED BODY GUITARS

    She does pristing to relic. This is my relic Custom Esquire:

    [​IMG]
     
  13. Kmaz

    Kmaz Member

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    Dawn is no longer offering full guitar builds?
     
  14. 71strat

    71strat Member

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    The guy that turned me on to this paint also restores furniture. His family has had a business since 1946. The guy that's going to do my finish has been doing it since 1958. They year I was born.

    Yesterday he told me that since I was having such a hard time finding someone to use this paint he would shoot it for me.

    Hibernia also told me yesterday before I spoke with Ken that they would shoot it.

    The only problem was they had never done a guitar and didn't know how long it would take. ( Hours )

    And at $115 an hour I cant do it.

    He also has Restored a Chair that James Madison bought and had delivered when he was in the White House. As I said the family business has been around 60 years. They must be doing something right.

    Lots of places it is Illegal to shoot this stuff commercially. Hibernia Auto Restoration is in New Jersey. They've been around since 64.

    If I hadn't already found someone to shoot it I would have gladly had your GF shoot it.
     
  15. '59_Standard

    '59_Standard Member

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    I honestly don't have the time to go through another one of those...

    Straight question: Not verbal - its not on their site. Do you have in writing this product is 100% made to the "old recipe" .

    Its not for me to prove btw.

    I emailed Hibernia if its 100% old-school. Haven't had a reply in writing. I'd honestly like to know.
     
  16. Ian Anderson

    Ian Anderson Supporting Member

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    Maybe some of the guitar builders and refinishes are already getting their paint from Hibernia if as the man says he sold so many gallons to guitar builders he's memorized the codes?

    Maybe there are other companies around offering nitrocellulose lacquer to automotive and motorcycle refinishers that of been around even longer?

    Acrylic and natural colors have been both used with nitro topcoats.

    I am sure any guitar refinisher would be happy if you supplied them with the lacquer if they don't already use it from Hibernia.
     
  17. '59_Standard

    '59_Standard Member

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    Well theres the question Ian: are those others who may be using others nitro getting the real 'eye of newt, toe of frog, wool of bat' stuff. :bong


    - I'm a cynical old sod.
     
  18. Dereksslide

    Dereksslide Member

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    Loving the fact someone thinks the FBI are really going to care about a company selling paint if there is a bit of artistic licence going on with their advertising.


    At least, I think that's implied, wading through pages of copy and paste isn't something I'm going to do.
     
  19. Ian Anderson

    Ian Anderson Supporting Member

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    Well Hibernia probably won't sell you clear . In fact they told me not to buy their black because they had to charge me a lot of money for it and I can get black anywhere for much cheaper including the company that makes my clear nitro. When I question them on it they told me no there is no difference just buy your black lacquer from the company you are used to. There is so much more paint on a guitar besides the color and less you are shooting single stage. Not to mention acrylic and nitro it was originally used for color. There is more primer and clear coats on a solid color guitar then the actual color so chasing Bigfoot and unicorns is sort of pointless.
     
  20. Ian Anderson

    Ian Anderson Supporting Member

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    One could easily ring them up and talk to someone there to see if they are manufacturing their own paint and what the make up of it is.
     

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