Hiwatt amps are more mid-scooped than Fender blackface?

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I've been on a bit of a Gilmour tone-quest for a while, and have been using a Fender BF amp for the most part with good results. I am curious about how the Hiwatt's compare since he was an avid user through most of his career. I saw one graph comparing the frequency of the two that showed the Hiwatt being even more mid-scooped, but the mid knobs on both were turned all the way to '0' for both amps so I'm not sure how they compare with a middle-range setting.
 
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JPH118

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Here are a couple freq response graphs of tonestacks, DR103, AB763, and a Plexi (just for sh*ts & giggles), all controls set exactly halfway...


The Hiwatt DR103 has the most gain loss overall, and a lower frequency center point for the mid compared to both Fender and Marshall circuits, but the degree of cut isn’t quite as steep comparatively with Fender (while Marshall is much less). Approx -13dB @300hz for Hiwatt, -14dB @500hz for Fender at its lowest point.

FYI screenshots are from the Tonestack calculator app, really useful!
 
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Messages
441
Here are a couple freq response graphs of tonestacks, DR103, AB763, and a Plexi (just for sh*ts & giggles), all controls set exactly halfway...


The Hiwatt DR103 has the most gain loss overall, and a lower frequency center point for the mid compared to both Fender and Marshall circuits, but the degree of cut isn’t quite as steep comparatively with Fender (while Marshall is much less). Approx -13dB @300hz for Hiwatt, -14dB @500hz for Fender at its lowest point.

FYI screenshots are from the Tonestack calculator app, really useful!
I find that interesting because it matches the other one I was looking at pretty closely. I also find it interesting that Gilmour used a Colorsound Powerboost pedal with it which is also a very mid-scooped overdrive.


Interesting. I definitely do not perceive my Hiwatt as mid scooped in the slightest. Although, I can’t say I ever EQ’d it to be that way.
I wonder if the Hiwatt cab with Fane speakers balanced this out somewhat?... it's a very characteristic-sounding speaker/cab combination.
 

JPH118

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3,230
Interesting. I definitely do not perceive my Hiwatt as mid scooped in the slightest. Although, I can’t say I ever EQ’d it to be that way.
I wonder if the Hiwatt cab with Fane speakers balanced this out somewhat?... it's a very characteristic-sounding speaker/cab combination.

Id say there are other aspects of the Hiwatt design that help, like the unique cathode-driven phase inverter and EL34s, massive OT and Fanes... if anything, the tonestack cut helps trim the fat that might be overwhelming in the overall sum of parts.

The tonestack calc doesn’t take those other aspects into it, just the EQ curve itself... ultimate output curve can be very different
 
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ProfRhino

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7,422
nope, not ime. :nono
I actually used my '76 504 for some technical tests yesterday, with a Strat and a pair of GB 412s, and intuitively dialed out a good amount of low mids.
mind you, I was not necessarily chasing the best possible tone there, just needed the amp as a "tone generator", but some scooping was called for ... :dunno
and I agree, Mullards and the appropriate Fane loaded cab (e.g. purples are a whole lot different than Crescendos) are a big part of the formula.

all ime, ymmv,
Rhino
 

splatt

david torn / splattercell
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when you jumper channels on the old ones, you alter the effective results of raw tone-stack data, right?
 

ProfRhino

Member
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7,422
when you jumper channels on the old ones, you alter the effective results of raw tone-stack data, right?
probably so. :dunno
but I'm old school and not a studied tech, so I simply rely on my ears for the most part.
those are the first that will come complaining anyway ... :p
lol,
Rhino
 

ROKY

Member
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7,220
I have a HIWATT CP103 circuit amp en route that is supposed
to have less mid-range than a typical DR103 circuit .

Some describe these as leaning towards a Vox or BF sound :dunno
I'll know more in a few days .
 

Echoplexi

Gold Supporting Member
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10,096
I have a HIWATT CP103 circuit amp en route that is supposed
to have less mid-range than a typical DR103 circuit .

Some describe these as leaning towards a Vox or BF sound :dunno
I'll know more in a few days .
Who made your new amp? You’ll have to rip some Townshend windmill chords on that thing!
 

John Quinn

Member
Messages
1,875
Here are a couple freq response graphs of tonestacks, DR103, AB763, and a Plexi (just for sh*ts & giggles), all controls set exactly halfway...


The Hiwatt DR103 has the most gain loss overall, and a lower frequency center point for the mid compared to both Fender and Marshall circuits, but the degree of cut isn’t quite as steep comparatively with Fender (while Marshall is much less). Approx -13dB @300hz for Hiwatt, -14dB @500hz for Fender at its lowest point.

FYI screenshots are from the Tonestack calculator app, really useful!

The screenshots are missing the Frequency graph. What frequency is the centerpoint?
 

JPH118

Member
Messages
3,230
The screenshots are missing the Frequency graph. What frequency is the centerpoint?
Couldn’t fit everything in the pic collage, center points are listed below it in my text. 300hz DR103, 500hz AB763. Here is original:

 
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JPH118

Member
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3,230
when you jumper channels on the old ones, you alter the effective results of raw tone-stack data, right?
Absolutely, you’re increasing an already mid-centric guitar signal to begin with, esp with humbuckers. Since one side pushes the top more than the other, it’s the mid to low areas that get thicker.

The tonestack graph doesn’t factor in anything after it, either, which in the case of the average guitar speaker curve is typically very mid-heavy. Here’s a Fane F70 frequency curve, very full in the area where the DR103 mids are cut...

 




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