How does one use the minor 6 chord, and the minor 7 b5 chord?

Discussion in 'Playing and Technique' started by dead of night, Jul 3, 2019.

  1. dead of night

    dead of night Member

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    Hi, when in a progression does one use the minor 6 chord, and as a separate question, when does one use the minor 7 b5 chord?

    I know one way to use the minor 7 b5 chord is the ii chord in a minor key, are there any other common uses?

    Also, are these 2 chords synonyms, or closely related to other chords?
     
  2. Ed DeGenaro

    Ed DeGenaro Supporting Member

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    m6 when the minor isn't a ii.
    Like when it's a I.
    And you realise a m7b5 is a minor with the 6 in the bass, a rootless dom9 or majb5
    As in Cm6=Am7b5=F9=Eb6b5
     
  3. dead of night

    dead of night Member

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    im6=vi7b5; im7b5=biiim6

    im6= IV9; im7b5= bVI9

    Thank you, very interesting.
     
  4. cameron

    cameron Member

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    I think the clearer way to think about it is that iiim7b5 = I9 (no root) or that viim7b5 = V9 (no root)
     
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  5. JonR

    JonR Member

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    maybe...
    In theory maybe, but in practice no, because there is no such thing as a tonic m7b5 chord.
    Yes, especially in line cliches (see below)
    See above. "im7b5" doesn't exist.
    Locrian mode? OK, but then you wouldn't use bVI9 in locrian mode, because it's too obviously V of the relative major, or I of the relative mixolydian. Locrian mode can only use one chord, or none.

    Here's a list of standard uses:

    im6 = tonic minor chord (alternative to m(maj7), m(add9, etc, a melodic minor chord). NB: not the same thing as vim7b5. You wouldn't put an F# bass on an A minor tonic chord. If you did, it would become a secondary ii chord... possibly signalling a modulation to E minor.)

    im > im(maj7 > im7 (or III) > im6 (or IV9) > imb6 (bVImaj7) > im. (Stairway to Heaven, etc.)

    im > imb6 > im6 > imb6 (James Bond)

    ivm6 = iim7b5 > V7(b9) > i or I. (I.e, in minor key or major key)

    IV > ivm6 > I. (Beatles favourite, also ii > ivm6 > I)

    In a jazz major key, ivm6 sometimes gets a bVII bass note, to make the "backdoor progression". E.g., Bb9(#11) > Cmaj7. (Bb9 = Fm6/Bb, or Dm7b5/Bb. F melodic minor extensions, because that's the closest scale to C major that includes the chord tones.)
     
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  6. dead of night

    dead of night Member

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    Thanks, very much.
    Is there any use for a minor7 b5 chord other than on the ii?
     
  7. dewey decibel

    dewey decibel Supporting Member

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    Yeah, a really common one is off the b5 of the tonic. So if we’re in the key of Fmaj, Bmin7b5. This chord is usually followed by either Bbmaj or Bbmin. You could think of it as a G7 (or G13) with a 3rd in the bass. A couple tunes that come to mind are the end of the A section of When Sunny Gets Blue and the last eight if I Remember You. It’s also the beginning of a common ending/outro.
     
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  8. cameron

    cameron Member

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    As has been noted above, a common use of the min7b5 is as a sub for a dom9. Most of the time, if I play a min7b5, I'm not thinking of it as a min7b5, I'm thinking of it as a dom9 voicing.

    Thus I might play Emin7b5 when a chart calls for C9, and I will think of it as C9.
     
  9. guitarjazz

    guitarjazz Member

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  10. dlguitar64

    dlguitar64 Member

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    Cmin6=Amin7b5=F9=B7#5b9

    Learn the inversions on the D G B E strings for starters.

    G A C Eb
    C Eb G A
    A C Eb G
    Eb G A C
     
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  11. JonR

    JonR Member

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    Thanks for those - new to me - but I'd say "really common" was a bit of an exaggeration, unless you can come up with (say) a dozen or so more examples. Surely you mean "extremely rare"? ;).
    The charts I have show it in some versions (not all) of When Sunny Gets Blue - nice piece of chromatic voice-leading, between D7 and Bbm7 (nothing to do with b5 of the key) - and I can't find one in I Remember You.
     
  12. StevenA

    StevenA Member

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    How about Christmas Time Is Here, Vince Guaraldi
     
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  13. guitarjazz

    guitarjazz Member

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    I Thought About You....
     
  14. guitarjazz

    guitarjazz Member

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    I just heard Sco play live. They ended with But Beautiful and on one A section started with C#min7b5-C9-Bmin7b5-E7....it was cool...I'm stealing it.
     
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  15. fenderlead

    fenderlead Member

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    As Time Goes By verse

    (Dm7) You must remember (G7) this, a (Gm6) kiss is just a (G7) kiss

    or something like that.

    Night and Day

    Night and (Dm7b5) day, (G7) you are the (Cmaj7) one

    A minor/major mix, which the blues can do as well.

    Also for the roaring traffic boom, in the silence of my lonely room chromatic descending part

    F#m7b5 Fm7 Em7 Ebdim7 Dm7 G7 back to Cmaj7, the G7 could be a C#7b5 sub which would make the descent more chromatic.

    Check out the Jazz Standards for m6/m7b5.
     
    Last edited: Jul 4, 2019
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  16. guitarjazz

    guitarjazz Member

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    Somewhere Over the Rainbow?
     
  17. ChampReverb

    ChampReverb Silver Supporting Member

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    Summertime (in the key of Am) sounds good if you play

    Am6 / Bm6 / (4x)

    before going to the Dm

    -bEn r.
     
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  18. JonR

    JonR Member

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    Thanks. They're getting slightly less rare... Still some way before "extremely common" though.;) (Yep, I'm being pedantic :).)
     
  19. JonR

    JonR Member

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    That's another ii chord, yes (bar 5 of bridge)?
     
  20. guitarjazz

    guitarjazz Member

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    Sometime first chord of A section #iv Half-dim. It gets old if you do every time.
     

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