How does one use the minor 6 chord, and the minor 7 b5 chord?

Discussion in 'Playing and Technique' started by dead of night, Jul 3, 2019.

  1. dlguitar64

    dlguitar64 Member

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    The last A section of In a Sentimental Mood often starts with Bmin7b5 subbing for the D minor and going down chromatically to the G minor.
     
  2. JonR

    JonR Member

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    In what way? It hasn't got far to go after all ;).
    I.e., the usual line cliche is Dm - maj7 - 7 - 6, with the last one being the Bm7b5. If you start with Bm7b5, how does the descent work? Or is the Bm7b5 simply held for two bars? (I can imagine a nice descent, I just wondered if there's a specific one you're thinking of.)
     
  3. JonR

    JonR Member

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    Ah ha! ;) (Wouldn't that count as vii of the iii chord in bar 2? or is it just for the first 2 beats?)
     
  4. guitarjazz

    guitarjazz Member

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    Yep ii of iii-as it goes to VII7-iii.
     
  5. dlguitar64

    dlguitar64 Member

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    Bmin7b5 Bbmin7/Amin7 Abmin7/ Gmin works or

    Bmin7b5 Bb13/ Amin7 Ab13 is also nice
     
  6. StevenA

    StevenA Member

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    Summertime is m6 heavy in many arrangements.
    Also, if they outlawed iim7b5 V7, Metheny would lose half his tunes.
     
  7. JonR

    JonR Member

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    Thanks, yes, I was thinking of something like the second one. :)
     
  8. Ed DeGenaro

    Ed DeGenaro Supporting Member

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    Or you could treat it as a rootless V9 of iii
     
  9. JonR

    JonR Member

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    Well ... as guitarjazz pointed out, I made a mistake, #ivm7b5 is actually ii of iii, not vii.
    E.g., F#m7b5 in C major would be ii of Em. F#dim7 would be D#dim7 = vii of Em. It can go via B7b9 (still harmonising the melody) to get to Em.
    F#m7b5 is a rootless D9, not a rootless B9.
     
  10. guitarjazz

    guitarjazz Member

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    If it happens, folks usually do it on the last A section of the form. @around 1:40
     
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  11. Ed DeGenaro

    Ed DeGenaro Supporting Member

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    I went with your vii of iii...plus that ii of iii doubles nicely as a b6V7b9#5 or VII7susb9
     
    Last edited: Jul 5, 2019
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  12. JonR

    JonR Member

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    And we enter the jazz rabbit-hole... :)
     
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  13. Ed DeGenaro

    Ed DeGenaro Supporting Member

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    Because relating 4 pitches to different bass notes is sooooo Jazz...
     
  14. guitarjazz

    guitarjazz Member

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    Most min7b5 chords are like lost sheep trying to find their way home.
     
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  15. JonR

    JonR Member

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    That reminds of the quote in Mark Levine's book about the augmented scale sounding like "Bambi emerging from the forest".
     
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  16. guitarjazz

    guitarjazz Member

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  17. dewey decibel

    dewey decibel Supporting Member

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    Well, I Remember You is interesting in that the 2nd chord could be considered as an example. Most charts have a ii-V (Bmin E7), but when it comes to improvising you’re likely to hear more of a Bmin7b5 E7b9 thing there. And if you consider those chords relationship to Fmaj it makes sense as we’re keeping the F natural there.

    There really are a ton of tunes that feature it, easily a couple dozen but I’d have to think about it. Days of Wine and Roses just came to mind.
     
  18. JonR

    JonR Member

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    OK, but that's just a ii-V. (Leading to Fmaj7 as a deceptive cadence.) You talked about it "off Fmaj7", but leading to Bb, not via E7 to a sub for Am.
    We were talking about uses of m7b5s which were unusual - i.e., not interpretable as ii chords. :)
     
  19. dewey decibel

    dewey decibel Supporting Member

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    Originally I did mention it was at the end of the tune, and meant here, the last 8 (really the last 6 I guess):

    Fmaj | E7 | Fmaj | Cmin F7 | Bbmaj | Bbmin Eb7 |

    Fmaj | Bmin7b5 E7 | Amin D7 | Gmin C7 | Fmaj | Gmin C7

    That's pretty much the same move as in Days of Wine and Roses, There Will Never Be Another You, etc. Yes I guess that can be considered just another ii7b5 chord but I don't see it that way, even if it's followed by it's V7 partner. Or at least, I feel it's placement in relation to the tonic is worth a fair amount of study as it is fairly common move (unusual was your word, not mine!).
     
  20. Ed DeGenaro

    Ed DeGenaro Supporting Member

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    How so? It's a secondary Dom. Leading to the iii subbing for I with it's equivalent minor.
    Which naturally would be ii7b5 V7b9 in minor.
     

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