How does one use the minor 6 chord, and the minor 7 b5 chord?

Discussion in 'Playing and Technique' started by dead of night, Jul 3, 2019.

  1. dewey decibel

    dewey decibel Supporting Member

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    :banana


    Or, as mentioned a II7/9 chord with a 3rd in the bass.

    Well this where things can get interesting IMO. We’re taking about function, yeah? And using comparable substitutions? And that a bv7b5 is comparable to a vi6 chord or a II7? So in the key of F, we have Bmin7b5, Dmin6 and G9 all being of a similar nature? Here’s the rub, I hear those all as consonant to Fmaj, which is a very different relationship than your standard ii chord.

    What I mean by consonant is, play an Fmaj triad on a piano with the left hand (heck, extend it to the maj7th if you want) and play a Dmin6 with the right hand and it’s consonant. I mean it doesn’t need to resolve. It may not be the prettiest thing but it’s ok, it can hang tight. Same with G9 over F. Now let’s take the usual ii7b5 in relationship to F and make the same substitutions, giving us Gmin7b5, Bbmin6, and Eb9. And try the same experiment with an Fmaj7 in the left and a Bbmin6 in the right, it doesn’t work. Those notes clash, they want to resolve to the Fmaj7. Same with Eb9 on top. And same with Gmin7b5 on top, because it’s a proper ii chord, that’s its job!

    Now, I’m not going to tell you a Bmin7b5 over an F triad is consonant, I’m still trying to figure that one out. But if you look at the notes in relation to F it really should be, I think it’s just because of the voicing and built in tri-tone that make it rub and want to resolve.

    Anyway, you can probably sum this all up to some kind of modal interchange or lydianization of the tonic (I think I made that word up) or some other term I don’t really understand. But either way I feel pretty confident in saying I don’t really see a bv7b5 as being a common ii7b5 move.
     
  2. Ed DeGenaro

    Ed DeGenaro Supporting Member

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    The one thing I learned from playing in a duo setting doing a 90 minute nothing but Wayne tunes is that he seems to enjoy surprising the listener with non functional harmony.
    One of the devises he likes is semitonal movement for example, or harmonic interruptions.
    I mean have fun anyalizing Fall as functioning harmony
    C#-7 B7b5 E9sus A-11b5
    C#-7 B7b5 E9sus A-11b5
    D∆7 D7 G-7 B-7 Ab∆7
    C#-7 B7b5 E-7 C∆7
     
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  3. JonR

    JonR Member

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    Yes, and without the root, of course. ;) (This ambiguity is what we love about m7b5s, right? ;))

    Well, yes, in the sense that they're all diatonic to C major. I wouldn't use the word "consonant" myself, but I think I know what you mean. They all have an affinity, and all could certainly resolve to C major. (Or indeed A major, ha!)
    But it depends which "I" the "ii" is referring to. In the key of F major, Bm7b5 is not ii. On the face of it, it's a secondary ii, ii/iii. It could be a rootless II (V/V), that's true, but that interpretation (same as "ii/iii") would depend on what followed.
    Ah, you mean a lydian consonance. ;) Gotcha. So Bm7b5 could be seen as a lydian extension of F major. I think in that case, the bass note would need to remain as F, which it obviously could do, but doesn't in the context we're talking about.
    OK, we're on another trip here...
    I still want to make a distinction between Gm7b5 and Bbm6 on the one hand inversions of each other - and Eb9, which is sticking a big fat Eb in the bass, making a whole lot of difference - at least it would if we were talking key of F minor. But in F major they're certainly all related, via the borrowed minor iv and the backdoor bVII. An important identifier there is the A note, which ties them all to F major, rather than the F minor key they're arguably borrowed from. I.e. Gm9b5, Bbm(maj7) and Eb9#11 all resolve to F, as versions of, or subs for, each other. Minor plagal cadence, or backdoor progression (depending on whether Eb is involved).
    Sure. With all those, you're jamming different functions together,
    I thought you just said it was? I mean if Dm6 over an F major triad is, then so is Bm7b5, because it's the same chord. The RH voicing shouldn't make a difference.
    I understand what you're getting at, and that it does make a difference which way you look: back from the Bm7b5 (to F) or forward to what follows.
    In the sequence you posted originally:
    Fmaj | Bmin7b5 E7 | Amin D7 | Gmin C7 | Fmaj | Gmin C7
    - if you look to what follows, then it's pretty obvious (in this case) that Bm7b5 is acting as ii of Am - whether or not it also has a kind of lydian relationship with F. And like I said, I think I'd want to retain the F bass under the Bm7b5 (quite possible) to get that effect. (And seeing it as a rootless G9 doesn't really make sense from either angle!)
     
  4. Tom Gross

    Tom Gross Silver Supporting Member

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    I didn't read every answer, but here is my answer, in English with limited calculations or latin words.

    The minor7 b5 is the "ii" of a minor chord. Playing a ii-V7-I is very common for major chords. For a minor chord the approach for a "2-5-1" is iim7b5 - V7alt - i (example in Am):
    - First a minor7 b5 up a whole step from the minor root (Bm7b5)
    - then an altered Dominant chord that is the V of the minor root (E7#9 - the "Hendrix chord")
    - Finally Your minor root (Am7)

    Clapton does this in "Change the World". You can hear it there and a ton of other places and get used to the sound.
     
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2019
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  5. StevenA

    StevenA Member

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    Check out Scofield/Mayer on I don’t need no Doctor,
    C#m7b5 on the second “need”
    (The entire chord change is cool:
    C#m7b5/ C/D /(CF#GD)/ G/A / A/B
     
  6. dewey decibel

    dewey decibel Supporting Member

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    OK, I am having fun going back and forth with you, but I'm also finding responding to every response tedious, so I apologize for leaving some out.

    But see, that's my point; resolve to C major, sure. But we're not in C, we're in F. They'd need to resolve to C, but they don't need to resolve to F major, they can hang.


    Again, that's my point, no it's not a ii chord. It's like saying all ii, iii and vi chords are the same. And yes, you can "dorian" everything when improvising like Aebersold teaches and it'll sound OK, but they're not the same. When I teach this stuff I tell folks to be aware of three things at all times; the chord they're on, that chord's function in the sequence, and that sequence's function in the tune. It's the later that I'm talking about here. Even though we're heading directly to Amin we're also still eventually heading home to Fmaj. That's an important distinction to me and something I think many have a hard time understanding. That's why I keep saying it's not a ii chord. I mean, did we change keys?

    Let's talk about that Amin for a second. Yes it's leading to Gmin, but it's also leading to Fmaj. Do we treat that Amin the same as we'd treat that Gmin? I mean, is it a iii chord or is it a ii chord? And yes, I understand a talented improviser can do whatever they want over these changes (heck, I'm not even talented and I can do it!) and in that sense it can be either/both. But if we play an Fmaj7 in the left hand and an Amin in the right, that Amin doesn't need to resolve. Do the same thing but with Gmin and it does. I'm just trying to help people get away from the mindset of treating all ii Vs the same.

    I'm just trying to explain where that chord comes from and why it's consonant with Fmaj. The same way you can go from F major and F minor tonalities you can go from F major and F lydian tonalities (or F mixolydian, etc).

    Again, I'm both looking at that chord's function in the sequence and the sequences' function in the tune. As for rootless G9 why does it have to be rootless? Try: Fmaj7 | G9 Abdim | Amin D7 | Gmin C7 | Fmaj | Gmin C7
     
  7. JonR

    JonR Member

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    No - but that's the idea of the secondary function.
    I'm sure you know this, but I can see how some find it hard to distinguish between modulation (change of key) and temporary "tonicisation" via a secondary V (and often a secondary ii-V).
    The Bm7b5-E7 is not changing key to A minor. It's just teasing us in that direction, briefly. When we hit the Am, we're off again somewhere else. I.e., the Am is not even iii in F major now - it goes straight to D7 to suggest we're now heading for G! But nope, it's Gm7, and we're into a ii-V back home to F, of course.
    This is the game that secondary chords (V7 and vii7s in particular) play: drawing us away from the overall key, but always retaining a sense of tension that will eventually return. The ties to the key are not cut, but they are stretched...
    The D7 suggests it's a ii. Personally I would treat the Am7-D7 as a pair, a whole step higher than Gm7-C7 - because that's the easiest approach. I realise much fancier approaches are possible. ;)
    You'd do that, at the point in the tune?
    OK. Personally - as I just said - I'm all for the simple approach. I like the way that sounds. G major scale on Am7-D7. I'm OK with chromaticism and tritone substitution etc. (hey why not Ebm7-Ab7 instead of Am7-D7? ;)) but I'm concerned with voice-leading and melodic phrasing above all. Two beats on Am7 is hardly enough to think about anything other than chord tones. I'm thinking about making a line that will land on Gm7, maybe even as far ahead as the Fmaj7 - but that doesn't mean I treat the Am7 as some kind of rootless Fmaj9 - the D7 is yelling at me that it's not that.
    Yes, but you've kind of cheated with that G#dim7 ;). Nice bass line and voice-leading. G9-E7-Am just sounds ugly (IMO). Not a big deal really, but adding the G just seems kind of rude. But the F-G-G#-A line, and replacing E7 with the ambiguous G#dim7, saves it.
     
  8. Ed DeGenaro

    Ed DeGenaro Supporting Member

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    Yet it still functions as a secondary ii-V-i.
     
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  9. dewey decibel

    dewey decibel Supporting Member

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    I lumped these responses together because it brings me to a good point; yes I wrote D7 but let's just imagine I wrote Dmin7 (which would be diatonic to the key of F). For Amin7 -Dmin7 are you still going to be thinking G major? I mean, I guess I could see G mixolydian but definitely not G major. Myself, I'm still thinking F major (A phrygian, G dorian, etc) regardless of if it's Dmin7 or D7. To me, D7 is the thing that's thrown in there, it's the sub. It shouldn't dictate the rest of the sequence or how I treat the Amin7. D7 doesn't change the function of the sequence (I know I'm in for it now!)....

    Which leads me to that rootless Fmaj9. Yes, I do think often think about Fmaj9 in place of Amin7, as that leads me to thinking of some kind of F7 sound (like F7b9) instead of D7. In fact I've gotten to think about just about every chord change in relation to what it does to the tonic, that's what this is all about, that's why I'm continuing this conversation. I really hate to use these terms, but this goes along with @Tag's tonic/dominant thing. I see Fmaj and Amin as tonic sounds. Amin and Gmin are very different in the key of F, Gmin7 needs to resolve but Amin7 doesn't. And my overall point is, even though by nature a m7b5 wants to resolve I see Bmin7b5 in the key of F as a tonic sound.

    I'm not sure what you mean. But look at the relationship of Amin7 and D7 to F. Let's say the bass player decides to hang on F at that point in the tune and you're thinking Fmaj9 (instead of Amin7) and F7b9 (instead of D7b9), you're going to end up at the same place as thinking Amin7 D7. And vice versa.

    To take it a step further, let's say we're ending the tune. We can end with the bass on F and an Amin7 on top and it will work (depending upon the melody note). In fact, we can have a Dmin6 on top, a G9 on top, maybe even a Bmin7b5 on top and it will work. We can't end with a Gmin7b5 on top....


    Yeah, the G9 on it's own is kind of clumsy for sure, but has a certain tin pan alley vibe to it. The E7 gives you G#dim (as @Ed DeGenaro points out) if you want it.
     
  10. dsimon665

    dsimon665 Supporting Member

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    an interesting point in history was the transition from early music to a chordal paradigm. I think the transition can be seen in the Basso Continuo part and figured bass notation. Over time it became associated with vertical harmony. However in the early form harmony was a result of the individual parts...not the other way around.

    ...and its not as if it still couldn't be that way. It might just be in the way we think about it; and the way we think about it is separate from the object itself (the music).

    There's probably a few master's or doctoral papers could be written on the subject (if not already).

    I think part arranging works in a reverse manner - taking harmony and creating the supporting lines for each player. However it doesn't quite reach the level of "just a coincidence" as in early music.

    Of course, that still doesn't cover functional analysis. That seems to be a layer on top of chordal assignment.
    Regardless, the scope arranging seems to bracket chord assignment - either at the form level, chord level, or in the case of part writing - below the chord level.

    It seems Barry Harris incorporates these ideas into his teaching methodology. One of hist terms is "movement". In one class he stated something like "There are 2 to 5 (string) writers...there are 2 to 5 players... a song is a beautiful thing that is more than just 2 5's." I've heard him paraphrase Coleman Hawkins (I think) as saying : "I don't play chords; I play movements."

    I was watching a Jens Larsen @JensL recent lesson where he mentioned that in Jazz, thinking in terms functional harmony wasn't there from the start. Its more of a recent (? maybe starting in the 80s ?) paradigm. But he went on to say its a positive thing that functional harmony was brought into the analysis of Jazz.
     
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  11. CharAznable

    CharAznable Member

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    We play Footprints in my new band. That's the part of the solo where I disconnect my brain and just wing it.
     
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  12. aiq

    aiq Supporting Member

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    What does your bassist play?
     
  13. Ed DeGenaro

    Ed DeGenaro Supporting Member

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    My fave back for this is using 6 note scales. And in lazy moments just grab something like the cry me a river lick and move it.
    Over the F#-7b5, Amelodic minor without the the 4th, or you can view it as F#-11b5 (F#-7b11 arpeggio with 9 and 11) or F# minor pentatonic with a b5 and an added9, or A min∆9 with and added 6...
    Anyways for all I care it can be called Franz...
    When it goes to the F7#11 move whatever phrase is played up a minor third. In other words C Mel. Min without a 4th... That gives you the sounds of a 13#11 sound without the root...
    Or move it down a minor third (F# Mel. Min) for a more altered sound which gives you a 7b9#9#5.
    I'm assuming you'd go with the up a b3.
    E7Alt...up a fourth from the previous C Mel. to F Mel. Min. Or down half step to B mel. Min.
    Leaves the A7alt... E or Bb Mel. Min. The latter leads better into the Cmin.

    Which brings us to this no matter how cute we wanna get and the reality is that there's a listener expectation since they hear as just backcycling...
     
  14. Ed DeGenaro

    Ed DeGenaro Supporting Member

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    How is B-7b5 a tonic sound in the key of F? I can see it as a stand in for a F6b5/F∆7.
    I mean it and it's pluralities live in C major and D Mel. Min... What am I missing?
    But while we're at it, with the key of F thing...Sunny... I mosdef not gonna treat the iii chord as a iii. Especially since it's preceded by a secondary ii V and tonicises the Am.
    I go even further and say that I treat that iii-7 ii-9 V7Alt I∆7 ivm7b5 VIIAlt as two separate Major ii V I.
     
  15. dead of night

    dead of night Member

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    "I don't play chords; I play movements." This sounds interesting, what does it mean?
     
  16. JonR

    JonR Member

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    Interesting point, and I'd say it depends on (a) why we are analysing jazz in the first place, and (b) what kind of jazz we're analysing.

    (b) means there is a distinction between tonal (key-based) jazz, and modal jazz. Functional analysis can easily be applied to the former (because it obeys similar rules to the classical music that functional analysis was designed for), but not usefully to the latter - at least not if it's purely modal.

    (a) means that - even where functional analysis can be usefully applied - it doesn't help much (IMO) with improvisation. Improvisation is what jazz (of any kind) is all about, and therefore what any jazz student wants to get on top of. Improvisation is about melody, rhythm, chord tones, chromatic embellishment. Those principles apply pretty much the same to modal jazz as to functional jazz (except in modal jazz one is not pinned to chord tones as much). Understanding how a chord is functioning is of limited use in finding scale material. OK, a "V/vi" chord analysis might suggest you use the harmonic minor scale of vi - but that's just one option and (in some opinions) not a preferred jazz option anyway. Seeing a pair of chords as a major key "ii-V" suggests the major scale of the I (even if the "I" is not the actual tonic), which is obviously useful, but you can get the scale from the chord tones - and still it's a kind of "vanilla" option: not particularly "jazzy".

    Hence - as I see it - the rise of chord-scale theory (derived after modal jazz) as a way of listing suitable scale material. Unfortunately that creates additional problems when students ignore the older - and often simpler - principles (melody, rhythm, chord tones, chromatic embellishment).
    At least functional analysis can help see when two or more chords can share a scale, which - even if the material is a little dull - can make for logical-sounding phrasing.
     
  17. StevenA

    StevenA Member

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    I’ll take “ How to Lose the OP” for 1000, Alex
     
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  18. guitarjazz

    guitarjazz Member

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    The melody at that point implies the G Augmented scale (and a little C Blues at the end). If you twist and turn through the G Augmented scale it'll sound like you are speaking profound jazz truth.
     
  19. guitarjazz

    guitarjazz Member

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    Where did those changes come from? They are dubious.
     
  20. Ed DeGenaro

    Ed DeGenaro Supporting Member

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    Some thesis about Wayne's compositions. I just compared it to real book changes... And it's close enough
     

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