How is "Gliding" different than delay modulation or interpolated delays?

Discussion in 'The Rack Space' started by Saint Luminus, Nov 15, 2017.


  1. italo de angelis

    italo de angelis Member

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    Hopefully this preset wil help understanding the glide...

    a simple one, using the Chorus algorithm.
    V1 and V4, 500ms <> 495ms, both at 50% feedback, panned full L/R. Nothing special so far.
    Everything else is turned OFF.
    I have assembled the important parameters into the SOFT ROW. You access it by simply pressing EDIT.
    And you'll find: S.0 DelayTime Master* S.1 DlyTime Voice1 S.2 DlyTime Voice4 S.3 Levels Master s.4 Feedback Master
    Under DELAYTIME MASTER you have the Glide parameters, set at their Lexicon default values:
    Glide Response 50 Glide Range 40 ms.
    I have patched the ADJUST knob to DELAYTIME MASTER so that in one single click it jumps from 100% to 200%... carrying the 2 delay times (V1/4) to 1000ms and 990ms, doubling them.
    A better way would be using a footswitch, a latching one... this will free your hands and you'll have your display staying on the GLIDE parameters for quicker tweaks and better comfort when playing.
    If you have a non latching footswitch you can still use it as the PCM can convert it to latching. RTFM!

    Here's the perfect scenario where the guy at the mixing board would want to switch from a delay time to another (I said SWITCH, not RAMP up or down!) and get no glitches, nor pitch artifacts.
    Time compression/expansion can have pitch shifting artifacts... as in the old digital delays. Expanding delay time = pitch goes down. Compressing delay time = pitch goes up.
    So... play a staccato chord and quickly grab the ADJUST knob and tilt it right. Play another staccato chord and tilt the knob left.
    At first tilt you'll still hear the first chord at its original delay. When you play the second chord, after the second tilt, it will repeat at the double delay.
    An interesting detail... if you set your knob at 1 (tilt right), play a chord then tilt the knob left... the trapped chord will change delay time... it doesn't work the same in the opposite way.
    Well... you hear no glitches and no pitch dives/rises.
    THAT'S what GLIDE is made for! It wasn't exactly meant for your chorus nutjobs....

    Now try changing the Glide Range to ANY delay value... BELOW the delays values (500/495ms). It all still works in the same way, right?
    What happens if you set Gl/Range to 495 ms? The right delay will introduce pitch artifacts at the click of the knob. And if you reach 500 ms there... both delays will pitch shift at any click of the knob (0 to 1 and 1 to 0).
    It will take some time for the delays to double of halve... at the beginning of either phases you'll get the most pronounced pitch shifts... then you'll hear a pleasant chorusing for a little while until the delays settle at the new values and get steady... all pitch artifacts disappear.
    Those warbles aren't exactly what you want to hear... usually... so the glide is taking a long time and too much delay is glided thru the changing delay times.
    But for special FX it's gold! You can control how long these artifacts go on with some clever modulation (AR Envelope).
    For music... not so good, for most applications... some may be able to use them there too... not all.

    Let's mess now with Glide Response. Keep the Glide Response at 500 ms... the threshold where both delays warble.
    Set Gl/Response to 0... hit the ADJUST knob and you won't hear any delay time change at all... pointless. WTF?
    Now set Gl/Resp to 1 and tilt the knob or hit the footswitch... fun starts... delay starts a SLOOOOW ramp (glide) to doubling time and while at it... you get an usable pitch warble.
    Tilt the knob back and a SLOOOW fall starts... shrinking delay down to 100% and adding pleasant pitch chorusing.
    Now that would be an interesting way to use glide... something would need to "tilt" the Master delay up and down, taking a long time between tilts... working like a switch.
    It could be the LFO on pulse waveform... running at very 0,xx Hz rates (find the one that fits better to avoid stopping the chorusing = don't let those delay sit in their min/max values). Or you can use a footswitch, your signal (kind of boring if you ask me), or else... basically you will have a desert camel slow ramping delays chorusing you can't really find on many units out there.

    Let's play some more with the Glide Response.... you are having some fun now, aren't you?
    Set it at 2 and you'll notice a slightly faster delay "morph" (how do you like the bloody word?) and the warble starts to be stronger... some may not like it as before.
    You keep augmenting the Glide response and your glides become faster and nasty at pitch. Back to special FX. What can you do?
    Well... it's either Glide Response or Glide Range!
    As soon as your Glide Range is set BELOW the delay times of those delays (500/495ms), the gliding pitch disappears, no matter what the Glide Response value is set to.
    You're back to the studio engineer pleasures of fast delay times changes without pitch warbling.
    Try Glide Response at 100 and Range below 495ms... and it gets useful... and boring.
    We are triggering a delay glide (100% to 200% and back) which takes a time set by the Glide parameters. Nothing is modulating anything. The glide has its own life and pitch joys or miseries.

    To use GLIDE as a chorusing tool you have two approaches:
    -fiddle with the GLIDE parameters to find your sweet spot(s) and have something triggering the Glide internal life speed by changing the base delay times
    -fiddle with the GLIDE parameters and use a periodic modulation source to modulate the delays times

    As per the first approach, we have used in this exercise, you may also keep the Glide Range at the delays value (in this case 500ms) so that we'll have pitch artifacts... and reduce Glide Range to a value which will cause pitch glides you like... probably around 2 or 3 in this case.

    Hints ! ! !
    This test runs on substantial delay times... that's half and full seconds of delays... so anything we've found out here... *applies* to long delay times, like ECHOES.
    When you want chorusing, you'd typically use MUCH shorter delays, from 0 to 25 ms. Keep in mind that all the Glide parameters will have to change to get things working properly.
    Things get MUCH faster!!!
    Glide parameters are not carved in stone and are highly dependant on the base delays used, no matter which of the 2 approaches you will be using.
    When using the second method... LFO sweeping base delays with the right GLIDES parameters settings... you want to consider that an LFO rate is also a matter of time. Speed and Time are two faces of the same coin... as old smart Albert showed. 1 Hz = 1 cycle lasting 1 second. 0.10 Hz... takes 10 secs to complete. 0.01 Hz... takes 100 secs!!!
    So... if your Glide rise/fall times are set to a specific duration curve... you may consider setting the LFO a click slower than that because that's the only way you will get a full and complete glide cycle before the LFO starts the next one. Not a compulsory choice... but you may want to experiment with that. Or the glide will sound pretty much as any regular chorusing (non gliding)... which is beyond the point here.

    So... use the "Glide Lab" preset here, following my suggestions to grab the idea of the whole thing... and, of course, experiment with delay times and glide parameters to find the sweet spots for them.
    One last thing... the GLIDE chorusing has a very strong pitch change ratio (don't think pitch shifter here!). It sounds like there is a large sweeping ratio as in old digital delays.
    For this reason it works great at flanging effects, where delay sweeping ratio is a crucial feature to get nice flangers.

    You are now dismissed.

    GLIDE LAB
     
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  2. hydroquebec

    hydroquebec Member

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    I got soooo close. There's a program called CTRL or something like that for these types of things. I was able to set up almost all parameters, but needed to hook up the MIDI. I also noticed that a new version of Sound Quest out for iPad, but I dunno....iPad.

    The problem was that some personal stuff came into play and I've been 100% focused on that ever since. It's something I'd like to pick up again one day, but that H8000 will be here tomorrow.
     
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  3. italo de angelis

    italo de angelis Member

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    Did you get to have sliders to control wide range parameters in CTRL?
    I mean... getting a delay to increase/decrease by 1 ms setps?
     
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  4. hydroquebec

    hydroquebec Member

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    If I remember correctly, I used a standard slider to get into the ballpark with a manual override if you wanted to enter the numbers via keyboard.
     
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  5. italo de angelis

    italo de angelis Member

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    Is CTRL bugged like a crackhead? Feels like it is.
    I created an horizontal slider, gave it the proper min/max values, 0-1365 to control delay time
    added the proper SysEx string to control CHORUS/RVB delay time 2 : F0 06 07 7F 0B 01 19 00 00 00 00 00 F7
    MIDI device input and output are properly configure and SEE the USB UNO interface
    move the slider... nutin' happens on the PCM80.

    WTF?
    I know what I'm doing....
     
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  6. hydroquebec

    hydroquebec Member

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    It's buggy as hell. I had to save my work very regularly. Unfortunately, I only got as far as setting up the front end controls (it was easy to run out of screen space). I think I stalled by trying to understand the sysex messages, but @jaykay73 very helpfully reminded me of a way to do that via sending the sysex from the PCM to the PC. I see potential in this software to create a fast editor.
     
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  7. italo de angelis

    italo de angelis Member

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    yeah... when they'll fix it and make it usable!
    I cannot get any MIDI output here... go figure.
     
  8. Saint Luminus

    Saint Luminus Member

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    Wow, that is wild! I programmed it parameter by parameter as I feel that's the best way to learn. Anyway, that was very interesting. Yes I see what you mean by Special FX. Hmmmm, I don't know any way to put it except I had no idea the PCM 81 could be such a sound design tool in this way. Swells, pads, ambient type stuff, I knew that. But this was very different. That slowing down and then speeding up effect was eye/ear opening.

    I have to tweak and think about this some more. Thanks Italo, Gliding is making a bit more sense. I'll have more questions after I mess with this some more.

    Dammit this thing is a BEAST!! :)
     
  9. Saint Luminus

    Saint Luminus Member

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    Ok you just blew my mind in terms of Glide. I haven't tried this Glide Lab yet, but I mostly followed what you typed. Again I have to get in start tweaking to get to grips with this. I must say this is quite fascinating, you've got me a bit obsessed with it now. :eek:
     
  10. Saint Luminus

    Saint Luminus Member

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    What a learning template this is! Thank you Italo, I'm truly stunned at the concept of Glide. For one, I had no idea of its utilitarian nature as per the engineer and changing delay times without artifacts. Damn that is a quite useful tool. No need to change presets or switch to a separate digital delay unit.

    As for sound fx, the speeding up or down like tape is just fascinating. I can think of a handful of uses for that. I played a short staccato chord, turned the knob and suddenly I have a neat ending to a song as the delay repeats go up in pitch or down in pitch depending on how I turn the Adjust knob. Oh yes, a footswitch indeed would be perfect.

    Then in a musical context, like a chorus or a flanger, this gets even more interesting.

    As you know, this will take some time to get sounds I like. But at least I have an understanding. I can't thank you enough for providing a seed here for experimentation. :)

    I said the PCM 80/81 was a beast in a previous post. I think that's an understatement. Seriously, my mind is blown.

    Turning the PCM off, I have to go practice now. No more Gliding goodness til later.
     
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  11. italo de angelis

    italo de angelis Member

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  12. hydroquebec

    hydroquebec Member

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    I was away overnight, but I can’t wait to play with this today!! I will report back in both threads.
     
  13. markdans33

    markdans33 Member

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  14. italo de angelis

    italo de angelis Member

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  15. Saint Luminus

    Saint Luminus Member

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    Oh sure, make me lust after the H8000! :p Thanks for that video. And I programmed a chorus on my PCM 81. It seems more like a game of cat and mouse adjusting the Glide parameters along with adjusting the LFO. I could spend hours tweaking and find new sounds. Actually I did spend a lot of time finding new and interesting sounds. You've opened up a whole new world on the PCM 81 I didn't know existed.

    Now in regards to your H8000, are your choices for Glide rate and LFO rate based on adjusting and readjusting those parameters until you came to a sound you liked? I don't have an H8000, but I'm guessing the process of getting to your chorus is the same.
     
  16. italo de angelis

    italo de angelis Member

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    Those 3 parameters, the 2 glide ones and the LFO, are THE ones to tweak. You maybe want to create your custom SOFT ROW and have them side by side so that reaching them becomes very fast.
    On the H8000 things are a little more complex: the sweeping min/max values and the glide are the crucial ones. If I use another type of delays I also get an extra "smooth" parameter.
    It's the way these units work and make glide spec_ed in different ways.

    Glide ON!!!
     
  17. jaykay73

    jaykay73 Member

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    This i has been a very enlightening thread. I broke out glide modulation for my take on a popular flanger tone on PCM8x.

    Here is the sysex (@Baba Louie don't get this confused with an audio file - you need to dump it to your PCM)...



    The preset is set up for stereo in / stereo out but it will work for a mono source as well.

    Everything is there for you in the soft row:

    S0: Preset Volume
    S1: LFO width - like the manual control on some flanger pedals
    S2: Resonance control
    S3: LFO rate - press *Load* to get to P width which controls the symmetry of the LFO sweep
    S4: The special sauce - introduces an extra manual delay time sweep between left and right channels. Makes things a bit more interesting.

    The ADJUST knob controls Glide Response - adjust this with your ears - there is a sweet spot between about 50 - 85. You will need to change Glide Response anytime you make large changes in LFO rate as @Saint Luminus discovered above.

    You also might want to alter 0.4 for reverb mix.

    Enjoy!

    JK
     
  18. italo de angelis

    italo de angelis Member

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    Some quirky things in there....

    S0 : Preset Volume -12dB is a huge cut. Let me guess.... SwitchBlade headroom? -6dB works good on a line mixer. You'll hear dry and wet in almost equal powers.

    S1 : Delay Time Master shows up (with the glide* parameters).
    LFO Width and Manual are different parameter. The first controls the amplitude of the LFO output and can be used for AM effects (Yamaha did a lot of this). The PCM80 doesn't have Width control on the SW1/2. Only the LFO has one that should be similar to Width and that's Depth, but you didn't use the LFO. Remember Sw1 and 2 are not LFOs.
    Manual is the base delay time of a flanger. You could consider the Master delay as doing that, yes, if it's not modulated.

    Things here get confused and convoluted. It could be so much simpler...
    S4 : That adds the second Time Switch modulation to delay1 ... not adding any extra manual delay- It's just more modulation depth to delay 1.
    The manual concept only affects a fixed delay time which is not what happens in gliding as you sweep the base delay. The only place where you can think of Manual control in gliding is the Delay Master control, if you glide the single voices.
    In regular chorus/flanging (no glide, just separate voices LFOs w/depths and rates), using this algorithm, you could use the pedals Manual concept by adding delay time to a delay voice, even though you have the same amount of mod depth or a differential one. This "differential" thing is driving you crazy, isn't it?
    The thing here is that you don't get to hear the added modulation from Sw2 to Dly1 because the (Manual) Delay Master is just too tight (33%) to allow any differential delay happening... Try setting it around 50% (to 80%) and you'll clearly hear what you had in mind. Not a matter of Sw2 rate. It wants more base delay to make the sweeps difference stand out.
    One thing... remove the reverb diffusion as it kills flanging... adding a truckload of delay inside the delay voices. Here you have about 9 milliseconds added to the Delay Master setting... kind of nulling the flanging range sweetness.
    Try this:
    -remove Sw2 patch. Look at the 2 delays now (1 and 4) they switch between 0 and 7 ms, they don't exactly go thru the entire sweeping range. It's the GLIDE there that makes the effects happening to the ear by smoothing the delays stepping. You want to check that? Make GldRange 0 ms and you'll hear the steps for 0 and 7 ms. Thru all these tests you may want to use a slower SW1 rate, like 0.44 Hz. That'll let you hear and see things in a better way.
    -now change the SW1 mode from switch to ramp... and your flanging is back, 'cuz delays are gliding THRU their ranges, not jumping min to max and back.
    But still no "differential" happening, right? That is a dual voice mono flanger.
    -the magic differential? The ancient Egypt secret? Babylonia's mystery? Nope. Just the oldest way any true stereo chorus does stereo.
    No need for the extra SW.2 there and double patching to delay 1 for an extra 2 ms. Just add 2 ms to patch 1, making it 0 to 9 ms. and you get the same offset back only with a smoother modulation.
    NOW you are actually hearing the glide! Take the SW1 rate back to 1.35Hz, add some verb (30% mix) but no diffusion. The glide and effect types change a lot with that.
    -now try Master Delay at 50% and GlideResponse at 80 or 90%... LOTS of flanging... but a slower rate sounds nicer there... try SW1 rate at 0.80 or 0.90 Hz.
    THERE! Lexicon flanging! Try working with 6 voies and you'll realize why people used PCM70 for modulation effects!

    Differential...
    it can be done easier than that, including the delay difference in the base delay of one voice and glide the master delay or gliding a delay thru a longer delay range than the other, by using different values in the patches or simply using a higher mod depth if regular chorusing (not gliding) is used.
    Offset mirror sweeping? Dly 1 glides between 3 and 9ms while dly 4 sweeps thru 7 and 0 ms... that sounds nice and adds movement to the stereo field.

    To mantain JK idea of differential delay AND rate added, I'd use FM modulation... the SW modulates itself (rate)... or another SW is modulated by the first. That adds some serious difference.
    Another idea... use the LFO and apply FM and AM to it... one SW modulates the LFO rate and its Width (sweeping its Depth value).
    More "differential"? LFO sweeps both SW1 and SW2 rates, obviously set to different speeds... gliding two (or more delays). SW1 modulates LFO rate back (FM). SW2 modulates LFO DEPTH back (width- AM). Find the sweet spots. You'll be as "different" as you can be!
     
  19. italo de angelis

    italo de angelis Member

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    I forgot.... the verb.
    How to kill those reverb internal reflections.
    First kill those reverb shell delays... no delay time/no feedback/mute the levels.
    But you still have clusters happening inside the verb. Diffusion would smear them but we don't want to use it as it detroys the flanger focus.
    So... get smart and set Size to 35.0 meters (cubic dimensions of the reverberant space... kind of) and your Mid Decay back to 1.22 sec. ... clusters are gone as you squeezed those delay.
    Maybe set Rvb Time Xover to 1.16 KHz and Rvb Time HC to 4.08 KHz. to make the verb more bearable.
    The thing is that most reverbs in the 6 voice algorithm just plain... SUCK! Yep. The Lexichip II does also provide for delays in those algorithms, taking away density from the verbs. The Chorus+Rvb algorithm probably has the worst reverb in the machine. Plate is a bitch!
    If one does want to work with delay glide, my suggestion is to use the 4 voice algorithms, specialized in reverbs.
    You get 4 glide_able delays and a much better reverb. For instance the Plate sounds denser and also has a couple of post_gliding delays (more glides!) for some cool post fx on the tail.
    And you also have SEPARATE DIFFUSIONs for the delays and the reverb... a must for nice sounds.

    It's nice to have reverbs and effects in the PCM80/81 and for many applications that could be fine. BUT... as your ears grow expert about reverb quality and tweaks, the best choice would be having the 80/81 doing effects only or reverb post processing for the strange sounds... and add a 91 to the rig for much nicer reverb work. THAT is what will change the way you hear the whole PCM glory.
    The perfect PCM rig? 2 PCM81s (with a Dual FX card) and a PCM91... with a mixer. I can also see a PCM80+PCM81 (+ DualFX card) as the 80 can use much longer delay times if desired.... and a 91.


    Now... for the DualFX card owner?
    Route the INFINITE thru the CHORUS (4 voice now), build some nice GLIDING stuff, have a footswitch or MIDI CC control the chorus delays master level and the INFINITE ON/OFF function so that when you press it the glide delays gently fade in, processing the infinite reverb tail in series and parallel. use the AR to build the fade in rise/fall times.
    So much fun!

    What I miss in the PCM80/81? The 300 Feedback control... which routes the output of the second algorithm back to the input of the first or back to itself if a single algo is used.
    Dangerous control but lots of fun in it!
     
  20. italo de angelis

    italo de angelis Member

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    A dozen ones!



    Some good old choruses (no glide):

    *Use the CHORUS+RVB algorithm
    *Kill all patches by removing parameters and modulation sources in all and any of them
    *Null all modulation sources parameters. Turning them OFF all helps the DSPs!
    *Make sure Fx Mix = 0% Reverb - Rvb Size = 4.0 meters - Rvb Diffusion = Off - Rvb Out = Off

    -1 : 4 Voice Chorus for chordal work
    Voice Levels 1/2/4/5 = FULL
    Voice Delays 1/2/4/5 = 12/6/18/12 ms (Master Dly 100%)
    Voice Depths 1/2/4/5 = 40/59/40/52 ms (Master Depth 100%)
    Voice Rates 1/2/4/5 = 0.52/0.58/0.52/0.64 Hz (Master Rate 100%)
    No Feedbacks
    Voice Pans 1/2/4/5 = 50L/50L/50R/50R


    -2 : 4 Voice Chorus for both single note and chords
    Keep everything the same as above and set:
    Master Depth = 200% Master Rate = 33%


    -3 : 4 Voice Chorus for both distorted single note and chords
    Keep everything as in #1 and set:
    Master Delay = 160% Master Depth = 140% Master Rate = 40%


    -4 : 4 Voice Chorus for overdriven or distorted chordal work
    Keep everything as in #1 and set:
    Master Delay = 0% Master Depth = 200% Master Rate = 34%


    -5 : 4 Voice Chorus for both clean or overdriven single note and chords
    Keep everything as in #1 and set:
    Master Delay = 0% Master Depth = 140% Master Rate = 34%


    -6 : 4 Voice Chorus for both clean or mildly overdriven single note and chords
    Keep everything as in #1 and set:
    Master Delay = 50% Master Depth = 200% Master Rate = 34%


    -7 : 4 Voice Chorus for both clean or mildly overdriven single note and chords 2
    Keep everything as in #1 and set:
    Master Delay = 200% Master Depth = 90% Master Rate = 66%


    -8 : 4 Voice Chorus for both clean or very mildly overdriven single note and chords - jazz chorus
    Keep everything as in #1 and set:
    Master Delay = 50% Master Depth = 200% Master Rate = 44%


    -9 : 4 Voice Chorus for both clean or very mildly overdriven chordal work - fusion jazz chorus
    Keep everything as in #1 and set:
    Master Delay = 50% Master Depth = 80% Master Rate = 160%


    -10 : 4 Voice Chorus for both clean or very mildly overdriven chordal work - pop-fusion chorus
    Keep everything as in #1 and set:
    Master Delay = 0% Master Depth = 80% Master Rate = 160%


    -11 : 4 Voice Chorus for both clean or very mildly overdriven chordal work - pop chorus
    Keep everything as in #1 and set:
    Master Delay = 30% Master Depth = 100% Master Rate = 200%


    -12 : 4 Voice Chorus for both clean or very mildly overdriven chordal work - pop chorus 2
    Keep everything as in #1 and set:
    Master Delay = 0% Master Depth = 90% Master Rate = 200%


    Thoughts:
    -a definition of "distorted" is kind of vague... but it's more distorted than "overdriven".
    -"Mildly overdriven" is that kind of setting where your dynamics pull some grit off your amp.
    -None of these presets has been programmed for flat out metal distortion sounds. You may try. Some may work... some may need tweaking.
    -Try adding some *external* delays and/or reverb. Please don't use the PCM for this. Use another machine. It'll sound much better.
    -Try using the concept I used here: by just tweaking Master Dly/Depth/Rate I could get a lot of different ones. You may try resetting them to 100%, change the individual delays/rates/depths/levels/pans for the 4 voices and then start using the 3 Masters again, to quickly build your own tweaks, again.
    -when working with chorus effects the ear gets extremely fatigued and you may easily and quickly loose focus and judgement of a good sound.
    Clean your ear with non modulated sounds... or just rest and do more chorus programming on another day.
    -you know you can store up to 8 of these tweaks in a single preset, right? And use MIDI to recall any of them....

    To have all the fun!
     
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2017

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