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How is "Gliding" different than delay modulation or interpolated delays?

Discussion in 'The Rack Space' started by Saint Luminus, Nov 15, 2017.

  1. jaykay73

    jaykay73 Member

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    Thank you Italo for your detailed analysis of my preset,

    Firstly some disclosures and disclaimers that I probably should have posted with that preset.

    How this all started for me was reading this thread about gliding. The concept was inspiring. So I went to my unit to program the hell out of it and over a week or so my EARS discovered what pure gliding sounded like. Pure gliding - as you suggested - with the delay time modulated with a square wave. I thought this might be an interesting platform on which to create a "glided flanger" preset. At the same time I found myself on an Andy Summers binge and did a lot of research on the inner workings and sound palette of the Electric Mistress. After listening to The Police repeatedly and a few YouTube clips - especially the one from Andy at proguitarshop.com - the EM sound / tone got stuck in my brain. That was the sound I wanted to create with a glided flanger on the PCM. I did not want to make a "Lexicon" flanger. So I spent the last couple of weeks testing and listening and tweaking until the sound in my head was the sound coming out of my speaker cabs. Then I tweaked the preset some more to make the UI a bit easier for the end user. I worked out which parameters REALLY mattered and which ones were not particularly essential. I wanted to make the UI simpler.

    Now, you're probably thinking "if he wants the Electric Mistress sound why doesn't he just get the pedal?" Well there is a very good reason for that. I'm not a pedal guy. AND I took this opportunity to try to take the sound in my head and translate it into PCM programming. Every time I do this I learn something along the way. That's a good thing, right? That's a good reason this forum exists, to help us all evolve and expand and learn and create and share.

    I've been playing De Do Do etc all week. That gave me the idea for the preset name - "Andy's Guano". Anyone who has seen Ace Ventura 2 will get that one.

    So...

    1. I run a WDW system. My wet poweramp has its own set of volume controls. Therefore I use 0.1 to balance the levels between the dry and wet cabs.

    ID: "S0 : Preset Volume -12dB is a huge cut. Let me guess.... SwitchBlade headroom? -6dB works good on a line mixer. You'll hear dry and wet in almost equal powers".

    JK: For me the -12dB is just an arbitrary number. I closed my eyes and used only my ears to find the wet / dry balance I was searching for. I put 0.1 in the soft row to make it easier for any end user to quickly adjust levels to his / her taste. The Switchblade doesn't deserve a cheap shot here.

    2. ID: "S1: Delay Time Master shows up (with the glide* parameters)".

    JK: Yes I know that. But you wouldn't believe how many people forget where the glide parameters are (or maybe you would). So I took advice of a good friend to make the UI easier and put Glide Response on the ADJUST knob as well as restricting the limits of glide, since low Glide Response has very little effect on the sound in THIS preset and high Glide Response sounds like ****.

    3. ID: "LFO Width and Manual are different parameter".

    JK: I agree completely. I initially set this preset up with the standard LFO with square shape and used LFO output to vary the amplitude of the LFO output. But then I decided I wanted a non-symmetrical LFO shape (square is restricted to a 50% pulse width). So I changed over to SW1 as the "LFO" but the compromise is I lose the depth control. I bought this compromise and decided to alter delaytime master instead. I understand the limitations this brings.

    However SW1 and SW2 can act as LFOs when their SOURCE is set to "ON" and THRESHOLD is > 0. Switch mode gives a square wave and ramp mode gives a triangle wave. The waves can be "skewed" with the P width parameter.

    4. ID: "S4 : That adds the second Time Switch modulation to delay1 ... not adding any extra manual delay- It's just more modulation depth to delay 1.
    The manual concept only affects a fixed delay time which is not what happens in gliding as you sweep the base delay. The only place where you can think of Manual control in gliding is the Delay Master control, if you glide the single voices."

    JK: Perhaps my use of the word "manual" was not correct. What I was aiming to do was make a stereo flanger where left and right sides were offset by delay time. But not just a static delay time as you suggested, but a delay time that VARIES over time. In other words sometimes left and right sides sound the same but then they drift apart a little. This is what I wanted SW2 to achieve. I experimented with it for a long time and I feel it gives my ears some pleasure so I decided to run with it. The periodicity is very slow. I don't think of it as "added modulation" I just want to change the character of the comb filtering in one channel vs the other and have those changes vary over time. I will try your suggestions though to see if my ears like it.

    5. ID: "One thing... remove the reverb diffusion as it kills flanging... adding a truckload of delay inside the delay voices. Here you have about 9 milliseconds added to the Delay Master setting... kind of nulling the flanging range sweetness."

    JK: Now I agree this is a very good suggestion. It's something I completely overlooked. I will try this for sure.

    6. ID: "But still no "differential" happening, right? That is a dual voice mono flanger."

    JK: Italo I did not use the word "differential" anywhere in my post. I am not looking for that sort of effect here.

    7: ID: "No need for the extra SW.2 there and double patching to delay 1 for an extra 2 ms. Just add 2 ms to patch 1, making it 0 to 9 ms. and you get the same offset back only with a smoother modulation."

    JK: This is how I started off. I will try it this way again, but as discussed the effect I'm looking for is where I want to add a VARIABLE about of delay time to voice 1.

    8. ID: "THERE! Lexicon flanging! Try working with 6 voies and you'll realize why people used PCM70 for modulation effects!"

    JK: I don't want "Lexicon flanging". I want the Andy Summers tone that's been in my head for the past 2-3 weeks.

    9. ID: "Offset mirror sweeping? Dly 1 glides between 3 and 9ms while dly 4 sweeps thru 7 and 0 ms... that sounds nice and adds movement to the stereo field."

    JK: I tried this for a while and discovered for this style of flanging I'm searching for it sounded awful. Too much frequency cancellation between channels.


    So I'm going to take your advice and go back to the drawing board, make a few changes and listen with a critical ear.

    Thanks again,

    JK
     
  2. italo de angelis

    italo de angelis Member

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    Mine are suggestions on HOW to get the glide off the algorithm in a way that can be clearly heard. You gave us no info on what you were trying to do...

    The static delat time varying over time....
    you can do that BUT not in the way you tried. Adding more delay glide is what you did.
    To do what you had in mind you can only combine glide and regular chorusing, so that the glide will change the base delay and the chorusing does... chorusing.
    It's quite an impossible thing to do with glide delays only because a glide is something happening between a delay value A to B. If you change A or B you are just expanding or shrinking the glide range... there is no base delay to change. It's really a different effect and sound.
    In regular chorusing it's easier because you have a base delay (fixed) and modulation applied to that. There it's possible.

    Now... apart from your attempt, the Electrix Mistress is a whole different story. I have an original late '70s unit here and have done quite some work on the PCM80 for it.
    The best algorithm to get close to that kind of deep microdelays sweep is definitely the Glide>Hall. I tried with several ones, including Chorus+Rvb, Plate and got 7 nice presets. The best are all running on the Glide algorithm. It gets really close. Often no dry sound is even needed... to get that kind of modulation depth tone.

    I'll try to have some audioclips ready about the Electric Mistress style deep sweeps on the PCM80.
     
  3. italo de angelis

    italo de angelis Member

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    Some VERY quick short clips about GLIDE and Electric Mistress type of sounds.
    Often the only dry parts are nice to use. Pretty good "swoosh" for a digital unit at those tight delay times...

    the raw flanger...

    "Electric Mistress#1" (Glide>Hall) WET ONLY - DRY added at 12 sec. / WET only at 27 sec. - DRY added at 41 sec.


    "Electric Mistress+Dly#1" (Glide>Hall) WET ONLY





    here the flanger has other effects too...

    "Summers World #1" (Glide>Hall) WET ONLY - DRY added at 30 sec.


    "Summers World #2" (Glide > Hall) WET ONLY - DRY added at 23 sec.


    "Summers World #3" (Plate) WET ONLY - DRY added at 32 sec.
     
    AnalogKid85 likes this.
  4. jaykay73

    jaykay73 Member

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    Thanks again Italo,

    You're right - I was adding extra delay gliding to voice 1 by the principle of "Multiple Patches with the Same Destination". When I watched the value of voice 1 on the screen I could see the extra values being added. To my ears it made for an interesting effect on the audio. My next idea to try is to add a chorus voice to voice 1 for some extra modulation. Overall though I am very happy with the sound. I shall try to get some decent recordings when I can.

    Since I have been flanger-obsessed for the last fortnight I have thought there are many different characteristics one hears in a flanger:

    - Swoosh
    - Throaty-ness
    - Resonance
    - The audio spectrum of the comb filtering
    - how much pitch modulation is introduced for flangers with longer delay times.

    To my ears Andy Summers' sound has minimal swoosh, is not particularly throaty and morphs somewhere between a flanger on some notes and a chorus on others. To me the non-predictability of this is really interesting. Classic tone for sure.

    I will have a listen to those clips and plan to integrate some of your ideas in future.

    JK
     
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2017
  5. italo de angelis

    italo de angelis Member

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    No, not much swoosh in Andy's use of flanger... but if you can get swoosh, you can cut it reducing the feedback(s) and get Andy's tone. It comes from that kind of flanging.
    Add some longer delays in one set of gliding ones (you have 4 there) and yo'll get the flanging to chorus effect.
    The Reticon SAD-1024 BBD chip had a range of 200┬Ásec to 500 ms... thats 0,2 ms!
    So, very short delay the Glide>Hall can cover.

    Or use Plate algorithm, have a couple of delays sweeping in the low range , 0 to 5 ms...
    and keep the other two voices on 0 and 1 ms for "zero thru" effect. Abou 40% positive feedback on the sweeping delays... Now to add the flanger to chorus transitions the Mistress does with its wide delay sweep, you could change the base delay by using the sawtooth patched to master delay, going from 100% to 200% and back.
    The SW modulator works fine too as you can do some waveform modeling there, but you need to have it keeping the Master Dly at 100% as base value and ramp to 200% and back for a shorter time than staying at 100%.
    Works great!
     
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2017
  6. italo de angelis

    italo de angelis Member

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    This is pretty nice for flanger to chorus transitions. The Master Delay goes from 50% to 176%, changing delay ranges while they are individually gliding. Lfo glides 2 delays while 2 are fixed for "zero thru". SW1 sweeps the MasterDly.
    It's also "rotating"...

    "Summers World #5" (Plate) NO DRY at ALL!
     
  7. Saint Luminus

    Saint Luminus Member

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    So I am back to pick your brains about Flange. Using the Chorus+Rvb algo, I created a gliding Flange. Its surprising how many different sounds you get by adjusting Glide parameters and the LFO parameters. For the Hell of it, I unpatched the LFO from the delays and adjusted the Chorus Rate & Depth Controls. But this leads to more questions as follows.

    What's the benefit of patching an LFO & adjusting the Glide & LFO parameters over simply adjusting the Chorus Rate & Depth controls instead? Is it more design possibilities & flexibility in coming up with awesome sounds? I can see I have a bigger sweep range.

    Also, what's the difference with the glides in this Algo compared to stereo pair of 2 tap gliding delays in the Glide > Hall algo? It seems there is less flexibility in glide parameters, but there is X-feedback.

    Oh and that Reverb in the Chorus+Rvb algo.....YIKES! Turned up the Reverb Level, listened, & then promptly turned it back off.
     
  8. Saint Luminus

    Saint Luminus Member

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    Oh man, this is soooo incredibly useful! The thought of trying out different Chorus sounds simply by using CC changes to scroll through them, well 8 of them, is fantastic. This is something pedal players just don't get. :)
     
  9. italo de angelis

    italo de angelis Member

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    No they don't... even though they have to wash their feet for every session!
    :D
     
  10. italo de angelis

    italo de angelis Member

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    Your first sentence is a great start... but you killed MY FUN when you stopped there. You unpatched the LFO and used chorus depth/rate... AND WHAT HAPPENED? How did it sound?

    When you use the system LFO you get a LOT more parameters as you enter a "modular" concept with more fine tunig capabilities; you get LFO waveforms choice, its depth (ampltude of the LFO output... is you modulate that you get Amplitude Modulation), pulse width (only for the pulse waveform) and then the glide parameters... so you can make so many different sounds there.
    The main difference is how those delays are going to react... glide has a different nature, deeper modulation, where two speeds are fighting... LFO's and Glide speed... creating interesting sweeps. The regular depth/rate chorusing is more periodic, straight ahead. It has its own good points too. Sometimes a couple of chorused voices is all it takes to make a wonderful chorus. But you don't get such a deep modulation off them, particularly when using very short delays (microseconds) and slow modulation rates. Just try a dead slow rate of 0.05 or 0.10 Hz (a cycle every 20 seconds or 10 seconds) in the system LFO, weeping a delay between 0 and 3 ms. Do the same with the chorus rate and depth for a single voice, pan it at center, use the same amount of feedback, maybe around 50%. Do you hear any difference?
    You can use the Glide modulation to make those delay sound like the regular depth/rate mod but you can't use the depth/rate mod. to sound like all the possibilities of the Glide thing!

    Remember one thing about the Chorus+Rvb algorith... and that IS a major detail which can ruin anything you do there:
    The DIFFUSORs are shared by the delay lines and the reverb. So, even if your reverb IS muted, you are still hearing diffusion in your delays/chorus/flangers IF diffusion is higher than 0%.
    When set at more than 0%, the reverb size will also change the diffusors internal delays... adding A LOT of delay time in there.
    So when you do this delay mod/glide work, make absolutely sure you turn both DIFFUSION AND SIZE OFF to their lowest values.
    You may add diffusion after you have a nice chorus/glide and see if you like it...

    Also... you can do Glide AND regular depth/rate modulations at the same time... sweeping the master delay (or the single delay(s)) while they are also swept by the algorithm internal lfos.
    More work to do there but some stuff may sound like no other machines can do... well, some can...but not at this price point.





    I'm not sure what the Glide>Hall algorithm really does/is.
    They called it "Glide" but you don't have the glide parameters. Yes, they could be hidden but I'm not sure about that either as those glides would sound very different with fixed gliding parameters.
    So, I don't think it's exactly about gliding there. Their are much closer to the old LXP series glides, a less refined gliding system only better sounding.
    I think of those "gliding" delay pairs as more finely interpolated delays (you get to use a 0.1 ms resolution there!) which sound great at flanging and micro-dlys effects (yep, those x-feedbacks and phase inversions help too).
    It's possible that the Chorus+Rvb delays have a fine resolution even though they don't come up on the display with decimal values. So a test would be in order about hearing similarity or difference there.
    But the glides > delays you get in the Glide>Hall algorithm are unique. You get chorus > delays in a powerful way there.
    It has its points! You've heard the flanging/phasing clips above!
     
  11. Saint Luminus

    Saint Luminus Member

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    Oh man, I'm sorry I killed your fun. :p Yeah I didn't say how it sounded. Using the Chorus Rate & Depth instead of the system LFO, the sounds were kind of what I expected. Not bad, it just sounds as you would expect.

    So it seems adjusting Glide & LFO parameters results in unexpected sounds. More like a playground of sounds and textures. Now I'm really starting to see why you like Glide so much!

    Right! This makes so much sense! I had to take a break after a while because I was getting ear fatigued.

    But man, you gave me some great ideas in your post. Like Amplitude Modulation? Oh duh, of course!

    Thanks again. Back to Gliding!
     

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