How to be a good rhythm player? Where is this so called groove?

Discussion in 'Playing and Technique' started by cantstoplt021, Mar 26, 2014.

  1. guitarjazz

    guitarjazz Member

    Messages:
    19,439
    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2009
    'Cept if you are Lightning Hopkins?
     
  2. cantstoplt021

    cantstoplt021 Member

    Messages:
    1,215
    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2013
    Thanks for the replies everyone. I'm going to really work with a metronome and try to get my rhythm playing sorted out. I ordered Tomo's accelerate your guitar playing and it looks like just what I need. There's some great exercises on there that I saw on youtube. I just need to get my DVD and booklet for them all.


    I love that rhythm guitar, I would love to be able to play like that. I'm going to learn that by ear actually and see how it all works out. Wish me luck haha.
     
  3. RocksOff

    RocksOff Member

    Messages:
    7,461
    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2009
    'Behind the beat' doesn't necessarily mean 'late'.
    More often, it's starting or accenting a guitar line in between beats... but only slightly. When it's done by someone who knows what they're doing, it's done on purpose... to give a dragging sort of feel, or to lend a feeling of malaise. 'Rushing the beat' is similar, in that by just slightly jumping the beat, one can add a manic or energetic feel.
    We're talking about subdivisions of a beat here, so unless you know exactly where the beat is, you're not really in a position to rush or drag for effect.
    From my experience, certain types of picking techniques lend themselves to these applications. Upstrokes can tend to feel a bit 'behind' and 'downstrokes' can be pushed forward just a tad to rush.
     
  4. Swain

    Swain Member

    Messages:
    2,408
    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2005
    Location:
    N. Little Rock, AR.
    So, we agree?

    That's a long way to say so! LOL
     
  5. Swain

    Swain Member

    Messages:
    2,408
    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2005
    Location:
    N. Little Rock, AR.
    As to the Rolling Stones, I've read where the way they often work is Keith sets the rhythm, and Charlie follows him, and Bill would follow Charlie. Maybe this is a big part of their overall "feel"?
     
  6. JonR

    JonR Member

    Messages:
    13,773
    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2007
    Location:
    London
    Partly ;). I just thought your post needed quallification...

    If you don't have a good sense of time, then foot tapping (while playing) won't help improve it. (That's the important point.)

    If you do have a good sense of time, then you don't need to tap your foot to help you play in time.

    But - if you do have a good sense of time - then foot tapping (like any other rhythmic movement) is simply an expression of how you're feeling the music. It's in you and it's got to come out, as John Lee Hooker said. Of course, lots of players with great time barely move a muscle (other than those they need to play their instruments). But if you can't help yourself moving, then it will probably make your timing worse if you try consciously to stay still.

    Lastly, if your sense of time is bad, then maybe dancing or other movements to music - while not playing - might help improve it. (I'm just guessing on this one...)

    Clearer? ;)
     
  7. Flyin' Brian

    Flyin' Brian Member

    Messages:
    29,928
    Joined:
    Jul 29, 2005
    If you want grooves and to learn to play behind the beat sit down and play rhythm with anything in the Stax /Volt catalog.

    Steve Cropper, Duck Dunn and Al Jackson set the standard for laying back on pretty much everything they ever recorded.
     
  8. GLB98

    GLB98 Member

    Messages:
    395
    Joined:
    May 6, 2012
    That is very very interesting, thanks so much for doing and writing about it. I'm interested in your thoughts re this analysis and the premise that Keith sets the rhythm and Charlie follows, and the subject of lateness.
     
  9. RLD

    RLD Member

    Messages:
    7,553
    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2010
    Location:
    SeaTown
    Here's a rough approximation. I didn't get all the embellishments but it's fun to figure out this stuff. :cool:

     
  10. guitarjazz

    guitarjazz Member

    Messages:
    19,439
    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2009
    I just read this excellent book. What an epic tale:
    http://www.amazon.com/Respect-Yourself-Stax-Records-Explosion/dp/1596915773
     
  11. Tomo

    Tomo Member

    Messages:
    16,617
    Joined:
    Apr 16, 2004
    Location:
    Boston, Mass
    Listen these:

    Ann Peebles "Tellin' It & If this is heaven"

    Donny Hathaway "Live"

    Tomo
     
  12. Swain

    Swain Member

    Messages:
    2,408
    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2005
    Location:
    N. Little Rock, AR.
    No, I had horrible time when I started. Tapping my foot helped to ingrain the feeling and necessary skills. I think it can be an essential element for people with poor timing. And I've taught many students over the years who also benefitted greatly from this same approach. Not all of them, mind you. But many.

    And yeah, an extension of how you're feeling the music. Sure.
    Also, an addition, IMO.
    I understand how you and others may disagree. But, I truly feel that the physical movement helps to enhance the entire experience. And when a player is "into it" more, this will be reflected in their playing and performance.

    So, I guess partly agreed, as you said.

    But again, in my opinion, "you gotta move".

    :band
     
  13. guitarjazz

    guitarjazz Member

    Messages:
    19,439
    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2009
    In his Getting In Time book Uwe talks about:
    1. Listening to music
    2. Thinking about music
    3. Feeling music with our body
    The whole book is a series of exercises that can be used on whatever music you are working on that uses different placements of the metronome combine with foot-tapping and thinking. The Victor Wooten thing is somewhat similar.
     
  14. guitarjazz

    guitarjazz Member

    Messages:
    19,439
    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2009
    Must a different Uwe Kropinski. I bet there's twenty Uwe Kropinski's that play guitar. The guy I saw perform (and I'd never heard of him before) with David Friesen had solid time and he was doing stuff with a tambourine with his foot that was deadly on time. I've never heard him play swing music so I wouldn't know if he swings or not. He does do a fair amount of clunking on the side of his guitar.
    I guess if you feel that way about 'time' you can just try to make a three-pointer with your metronome in the basket. I'm still working on it. I need all the help I can get. I must be a lacker!
     
  15. Flyin' Brian

    Flyin' Brian Member

    Messages:
    29,928
    Joined:
    Jul 29, 2005
    The video is really good too.

    YES!! Tomo!! Donny Hathaway Live - The great Cornell Dupree and Phil Upchurch on guitar and Willie Weeks on bass.
     
  16. Tomo

    Tomo Member

    Messages:
    16,617
    Joined:
    Apr 16, 2004
    Location:
    Boston, Mass
    Brian,

    Glad that you liked Donny Hathaway "LIVE"

    That's a sort of bible of good groove!!!

    Amazing version on "What's going on?" I love that a bit jazz arrangement.

    Tomo
     
  17. Phletch

    Phletch Member

    Messages:
    9,900
    Joined:
    Sep 21, 2012
    Location:
    Treasure Coast, Florida
    +1.

    Al Green records from the early 70s are a great source, too. Great rhythm section including Al Jackson and also featuring Teenie Hodges, one of the tastiest guitarists ever. Studying songs like "Let's Stay Together" and "Love and Happiness" really taught me a lot about playing rhythm guitar.
     
  18. GLB98

    GLB98 Member

    Messages:
    395
    Joined:
    May 6, 2012
    There is a similar thread going in the sound hound lounge for those of you that don't frequent that place. The thread gets quite interesting and informative around page 3 when a quite knowledgeable drummer offers some very interesting insights. It's definitely worth reading

    https://www.thegearpage.net/board/index.php?threads/1410805
     
  19. Manicstarseed

    Manicstarseed Member

    Messages:
    746
    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2011
    Location:
    Oregon
    It's all how you approach it.

    I find the steady pulse of a metronome allows me to create groove by pushing and pulling against it.

    Groove can be shaped like...

    Exact Exact Exact Late Exact Exact Exact Late
    which is a different groove than
    Exact Exact Early Early Exact Exact Early Early.
     
  20. Manicstarseed

    Manicstarseed Member

    Messages:
    746
    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2011
    Location:
    Oregon
    Thinking more about my last post I guess that the results of what I described could be notated as 1/16 or 1/32 type durations before or after the beat.

    Either way it is a way of using a metronome to help create groove. In a sense the metronome is the sound at its click time and you don't always need to occupy the same note space.

    This is a different exercise than a standard "if you hear the click, you are off" type of practice.
     

Share This Page

  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
    Dismiss Notice