I think I know why modelling isn't more popular

Messages
2,943
The reason is that it's not very easy to get the sound you want, compared to a simple tube amp plus a few pedals.

I have a full modelling arrangement (GT-1000, FRFR powered speaker etc), as well as a Marshall DSL40CR with a handful of pedals. I've had other arrangements too, including earlier modellers and the clean pedal platform amp with far too many pedals.

If you want the classic 80s hard rock/metal sound (and let's be honest, who doesn't), then you get a Marshall and slam the front end with a Tube Screamer or SD-1 and you are there. Done. Very little fiddling required. Now, try the same thing with a modeller, and let's assume you don't waste years of your life auditioning IRs, even then there are just too many variables. I have been chasing the elusive gainy Marshall tone forever and never quite been satisfied.

It seems counterintuitive to me, because who wouldn't want a box that does it all and is ultimately no more expensive than a half decent tube amp plus a few pedals. However I am reminded of some author or philosopher who said something along the lines that infinite choice leads to unlimited sorrow.

Now, you could tell me that I'm doing it all wrong and it's my fault - which is probably true. But it's also true that overdrive plus Marshall equals success with no effort.

It strikes me that there is a gap in the user-friendliness of the modeller product here that represents an opportunity for the right business.
 

Rod

Tone is Paramount
Gold Supporting Member
Messages
22,097
Ahhh, not everyone wants an 80’s hard rock metal sound :) :hide
but if that’s what you want, screw the modeling, keep the Marshall...
After owning a Kemper, I went back to my tube amps including a Marshall....
modeling is for some of us, tube amps or even solid state analog amps for the rest
 

Ejay

Member
Messages
5,534
Stick that modeler into the return of that dsl and your back into “select amp & pedal” ..only digital versions.
The marketing promise of “every cab you can think of” has drawn ppl to fullrange systems..which cause the stereotype objections against modeling....while traditional powersection and cab bridge the gap with full analog...and would be a much better fit for a lot of players out there.
 

rizla

Silver Supporting Member
Messages
862
If it was easy everyone would be doing it.

I ditched all my modeling stuff a while ago. Just downsizing and simplifying. Its cool and fun but I have as much fun with a tube amp and a couple of drives. Lots of variation and good tone.
 

TonePilot

Silver Supporting Member
Messages
4,662
The reason is that it's not very easy to get the sound you want, compared to a simple tube amp plus a few pedals.

I have a full modelling arrangement (GT-1000, FRFR powered speaker etc), as well as a Marshall DSL40CR with a handful of pedals. I've had other arrangements too, including earlier modellers and the clean pedal platform amp with far too many pedals.

If you want the classic 80s hard rock/metal sound (and let's be honest, who doesn't), then you get a Marshall and slam the front end with a Tube Screamer or SD-1 and you are there. Done. Very little fiddling required. Now, try the same thing with a modeller, and let's assume you don't waste years of your life auditioning IRs, even then there are just too many variables. I have been chasing the elusive gainy Marshall tone forever and never quite been satisfied.

It seems counterintuitive to me, because who wouldn't want a box that does it all and is ultimately no more expensive than a half decent tube amp plus a few pedals. However I am reminded of some author or philosopher who said something along the lines that infinite choice leads to unlimited sorrow.

Now, you could tell me that I'm doing it all wrong and it's my fault - which is probably true. But it's also true that overdrive plus Marshall equals success with no effort.

It strikes me that there is a gap in the user-friendliness of the modeller product here that represents an opportunity for the right business.
You haven’t tried the FM3.
 

Rod

Tone is Paramount
Gold Supporting Member
Messages
22,097
Stick that modeler into the return of that dsl and your back into “select amp & pedal” ..only digital versions.
The marketing promise of “every cab you can think of” has drawn ppl to fullrange systems..which cause the stereotype objections against modeling....while traditional powersection and cab bridge the gap with full analog...and would be a much better fit for a lot of players out there.
some suggested I do that when I had my Kemper... great, so now I not only had the digital breadbox and midi pedal to set up, but my amp as well... and the Kemper pedal simulations sucked, so now I need to bring my pedalboard as well? It makes no sense. Twice the gear and still have a digital front end... no thanks.... oh, and my pedals never sounded as good run through the Kemper.
The Keep it Simple Stupid slogan I learned from AA years ago still holds true.....

Done.....
 

MIJLOVER

Member
Messages
2,430
I find the premise kinda odd. I mean, modelers are sold by the truckload? Maybe not everyone use them exclusively, but maybe only in certain settings (recording, home use etc), or in a hybrid setup with analog gear.

But I do think you make a point about easy of use, or at least familiarity. :)
 
Messages
2,943
I find the premise kinda odd. I mean, modelers are sold by the truckload? Maybe not everyone use them exclusively, but maybe only in certain settings (recording, home use etc), or in a hybrid setup with analog gear.

But I do think you make a point about easy of use, or at least familiarity. :)
Yeah, manufacturers are selling enough modellers to keep making and improving them, so it's evidently a viable business model. That said, I haven't seen too many live bands using them over my way (just one as it happens - and that band included Brett Kingman, and they sounded fantastic).
 

Ejay

Member
Messages
5,534
some suggested I do that when I had my Kemper... great, so now I not only had the digital breadbox and midi pedal to set up, but my amp as well... and the Kemper pedal simulations sucked, so now I need to bring my pedalboard as well? It makes no sense. Twice the gear and still have a digital front end... no thanks.... oh, and my pedals never sounded as good run through the Kemper.
The Keep it Simple Stupid slogan I learned from AA years ago still holds true.....

Done.....
Nothing wrong with traditional. Using digital together with powersection and cab offcourse takes a bite out of the logistical benifits of only going direct.
I don’t think you need your pedalboard....drives/pedals are perfectly fine across brands....maybe even with kpa in front of the pack with its new drives.

the benifits I see in hybrid set ups:
- more control over my sound, I’m not tight to 1 amp, I can select the one I like best, also powerfull controls.
- because of the crazy range of sounds modelers offer...my sound is in there...with traditional gear there’s some luck involved that you buy the right stuff at first try. (Or move with changing taste)
- more control over sound with your feet (presets, exp pedals)
- studio grade effects at very economic pricing compared to buying single units.
- I have my sounds in 1 place/unit, which I can take to a venue where I use the return of “the house amp”, its on my desk for recording, I can combine it with whatever size amp I see fit for the gig. 1 set of sound to “organize” for all applications.
- Good feed to foh!!!!
- hosts my needs for acoustic preamps
- it still has substantial weight/size benifits, especially if u use ss power and/or compared to get all of the above with analog gear.
- getting all this functionality from analog gear is possible....but a lot more expensive.

Offcourse if you don’t need/want all that this particular user gets out of modeling....amp and pedals can make perfect sense, nothing wrong with it.
That said, I am convinced that a lot of people on a quest to find the right amp/pedal/low volume solution, would find uncompromised answer in modeler into return of tube combo they already own.
 
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Messages
878
Fwiw I have managed to get Helix Native sounding almost identical to some JCM800 recordings I've done through the same IR, this is just using the Placater Dirty and not messing with extra EQ or even really much with the bias/sag settings, just the standard amp EQ. There's a bit of mud/blurriness in the low end that can probably be removed, with either an EQ block or more likely the bias/sag stuff. Mercuriall Spark completely nails it straight out of the box, again with the same IR. Like I can't even tell the difference. Put the SD1 model in front of either of those and it does what you'd expect from the real world units.

I do understand wanting something simple though, I tend to get wrapped up in trying every single amp and booster model out, rather than just making do with what I have. I also like having the real knobs and being able to see where everything is set without having to click through. I want something like the Strymon Iridium but with higher gain amp options, I'm just not sure if there's a market for it cause a lot of higher gain people seem to be more open minded towards digital tech and don't mind all the menus/options etc.
 

GuitarGalah

Member
Messages
269
I'm not sure that you understand that modelling is already very, very popular.
Most of my modelling patches are as simple as you describe, an amp and a pedal or two.
But, and this is important, I can go from classic 80s hard rock/metal sound to surf, or rockabilly with a hit of a switch.
Different amp, different pedal. Done. That's a fair bit of work to do if you had the real hardware (I know, I do).
And I get control of volume that a simple valve amp and pedal just can't deliver, without massive sacrifice of tone, or extra doodads.
I have boutique pedalboards and hand wired valve amplifiers, but I have Helix and a Powercab+ in the lounge room.

Why are people upset that there are now more ways to sound good on an electric guitar?
 

joebloggs13

Member
Messages
2,445
I think the one benefit modelers have over traditional tube setups is when one is trying to get a specific sound such as U2's The Edge, or Gilmour's rig tone on the Pulse tour... There are tone packs you can purchase for your Axe fx/Helix unit...load it up, and voila...this is the attraction of modelers...well for me at least. I know my tube amps will always 'sound' better, no question...it's all that other stuff where modelers have the edge...no pun intended. IMHO :)
 

Brek

Member
Messages
83
I can only comment from my own limited experience of modellers, I was under the impression that whilst they are perfectly capable of replicating the sound, they didn’t do the ‘feel’, that opinion has changed after trying bias amp and garage bands tone collections, the drawback on my iPad at least, is latency, it’s rubbish, still trying to track down a fix, works way better on my windows laptop even with all the extra rubbish running in background.
 

Ejay

Member
Messages
5,534
I can only comment from my own limited experience of modellers, I was under the impression that whilst they are perfectly capable of replicating the sound, they didn’t do the ‘feel’, that opinion has changed after trying bias amp and garage bands tone collections, the drawback on my iPad at least, is latency, it’s rubbish, still trying to track down a fix, works way better on my windows laptop even with all the extra rubbish running in background.
If those are your benchmarks for modeling, and are close for you....you are up for a pleasant surprise if you try a decent hardware unit of today ;)
 
Messages
2,943
Fwiw I have managed to get Helix Native sounding almost identical to some JCM800 recordings I've done through the same IR, this is just using the Placater Dirty and not messing with extra EQ or even really much with the bias/sag settings, just the standard amp EQ. There's a bit of mud/blurriness in the low end that can probably be removed, with either an EQ block or more likely the bias/sag stuff. Mercuriall Spark completely nails it straight out of the box, again with the same IR. Like I can't even tell the difference. Put the SD1 model in front of either of those and it does what you'd expect from the real world units.

I do understand wanting something simple though, I tend to get wrapped up in trying every single amp and booster model out, rather than just making do with what I have. I also like having the real knobs and being able to see where everything is set without having to click through. I want something like the Strymon Iridium but with higher gain amp options, I'm just not sure if there's a market for it cause a lot of higher gain people seem to be more open minded towards digital tech and don't mind all the menus/options etc.
Which IR are you using?
 

LaXu

Member
Messages
6,618
Modeling is hugely popular, but more for the lower end, simpler amp like units like the Boss Katana. Most of the high end stuff is complex multifx rack or floorboard units and that alone pushes away a good amount of folks.

1980s hard rock/metal tones are totally my bag and sure, firing up my Bogner through my 4x10 gets me there in no time. That doesn't mean I am not having fun exploring other tones with modelers.

I do actually agree that there are too many "everything but the kitchen sink" models on the market. Memory is cheap so developers of these units try to cram in anything and more while the users keep crying "add amp model X!" on forums. Often it makes them more complex to operate than they need to be and there are precious few options for the players who would rather have just a couple of sounds in a compact, light weight package. These are the folks currently using some simple tube amp with a few pedals.

The Yamaha THR100HD head is one of my favorite designs for a modeler because it had very little extra tacked on top of it but it covered most use cases. It has a simple amp-like design, stereo poweramp for running into different cabs so you get enough variety from the amp models using real guitar cabs or alternatively you can run IRs from the line outs. Where Yamaha went wrong was not including a volume control for the boost option and some other quirks and blunders in how the unit behaved. The lack of software development effort also doomed it as some of these issues would have been totally fixable with the computer editor. I still hope for a second take on the design or for some other company to step on the plate and do an amp like that.
 

Watt McCo

Member
Messages
10,903
What seems counterintuitive to me is someone spending years chasing "the gained Marshall sound" by trying everything but...a Marshall amp with gain...

Amps aren't as terrible as modeler users make them out to be and modelers aren't as bad as amp-users make them out to be. Most frustrations involve picking the wrong amp or the wrong approach to using a modeler or the wrong modeler for a given task.
 




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