If you don't play the latest generation of modelers loud, you're missing out.

Discussion in 'Digital & Modeling Gear' started by Mr. Brady, May 3, 2016.

  1. Mr. Brady

    Mr. Brady Member

    Messages:
    834
    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2007
    It used to be that a modeler's sound was pretty much the same whether you played at quieter volumes or if you turned up loud. The saying was that you could get the "tube like sound at low volumes." This was mainly true. Turning up gave you the same thing, just at louder volumes. Feel stayed pretty much the same.

    I've been playing my AxII at quiet, kids sleeping next door volumes, to loud drummer volumes. I have to say it's the first modeler that the dynamics and feel just get so much better as you turn up, you can hear the little nuances that are imperceptible (probably there, but not as audible) at lower volumes. Turned up, I can change so much with my volume knob, picking dynamics, and the feel is so much better. That subtle break up with light picking stands out better at higher volumes. The feel is just like a loud tube amp at that volume. The tone and dynamics are likely there at low volumes, but at whisper volumes a lot gets missed by the human ear. Turn it up and you'll be in another world.

    Just a PSA, if you're only playing your helix, amplifier, ax, or kemper only at low volumes, you're missing out on something special.
     
    pima1234, Scrapperz, X-Mann and 2 others like this.
  2. DunedinDragon

    DunedinDragon Member

    Messages:
    931
    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2016
    This probably has more to do with the Fletcher-Munson curves than the modelers. Fortunately most everyone plays at a high enough volume on stage that you don't notice it. At about 80db the curve starts to get relatively flat.
     
    djd100, jrjones, eriwebnerr and 4 others like this.
  3. burningyen

    burningyen Vendor

    Messages:
    13,635
    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2002
    Location:
    CT
    It also has to do with feedback.
     
    pima1234, VCuomo and erniecaster like this.
  4. JiveTurkey

    JiveTurkey Trumpets and Tants Silver Supporting Member

    Messages:
    11,950
    Joined:
    Mar 9, 2009
    Whether it has tubes or transistors; I still want to crank it.
     
    iam_krash, MikeyG, veritechc and 2 others like this.
  5. VCuomo

    VCuomo Member

    Messages:
    16,069
    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2003
    Location:
    Southern California
    Most definitely true, especially if you don't re-EQ your high volume patch for low volume (or vice-versa, which is one reason why so many people comment that "my patch sounded great at home, but with the band it sucked").

    Of course, my neighbors would probably argue that my playing sounds much better at low volume, but that's an entirely different matter... :)
     
    scook likes this.
  6. Frank Ritchotte

    Frank Ritchotte Silver Supporting Member

    Messages:
    5,193
    Joined:
    Oct 12, 2015
    Location:
    Calabasas, CA
    So true. THIS is what the message should be for this generation of modelers. There will always be brand loyalty and feature differentiation across the competition but the overarching vision guys Like Marcus Ryle (founder of Line 6) and Cliff Chase at Fractal Audio had many years ago has come to fruition. These devices are paradigm shifts in the purest sense and the tech is so good now that the way music is made IS changing. I saw this same shift happen in Video editing...once it was "there" it was accepted. That is not to say Amps will go away but as the next generation of players are born they will have a vastly different perception of how you make guitar sounds. THAT is pretty freaking exciting.
     
    scook, Scrapperz, MrLahey and 3 others like this.
  7. ratbastid

    ratbastid Member

    Messages:
    460
    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2016
    For us modeling noobs: what EQ changes would be appropriate to go from hi-v to low? And back?
     
  8. VCuomo

    VCuomo Member

    Messages:
    16,069
    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2003
    Location:
    Southern California
    It actually has nothing to do with modeling per se - it's the Fletcher-Munson Curve that was mentioned in an earlier post, and it applies to all amplified audio. Here's a snippet from one explanation:
    So, if you EQ a patch at a loud volume, you typically need to boost the low and high frequencies when using the patch at low volume. Conversely, if you EQ a patch at low volume you would cut the low and high frequencies when using the patch at high volume. Again, this has nothing to do with modeling per se; you would do the same thing with a tube amp.
     
    Last edited: May 3, 2016
  9. ratbastid

    ratbastid Member

    Messages:
    460
    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2016
  10. dazco

    dazco Member

    Messages:
    11,709
    Joined:
    Jul 25, 2003
    tube or SS/modeler, at stage volume they both do something thats very different at volume than in the bedroom.....make the speaker sweat.
     
  11. maydaynyc

    maydaynyc Supporting Member

    Messages:
    896
    Joined:
    Sep 10, 2010
    Location:
    Long Island, NY
    As said above, the key point is that you create your patches at the volume you intend to use them. If you are creating presets meant to play with a full rock band you have to create them at the volume you'll be playing with that band, ideally through the same kind of speaker system. For example I once created a patch at home monitoring through my computer monitors. I was cranking it loud so I thought I would be ok, but when I got to reherasal and tried it through the PA system they had there the patch was muddy and didn't cut through the mix.

    Opposite is also true, I have a set of patches that are the exact same model and effect choices as my loud patches, but eq'd for home use on my computer monitors.
     
    VCuomo and Scrapperz like this.
  12. Opzouten

    Opzouten Member

    Messages:
    113
    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2015
    Location:
    Denmark
    You can still do this in your bedroom as its a matter of the sound pressure level at the eardrum. So using headphones can give you the same experience loudness wise.

    Using EQ can give you the best of both worlds.
     
  13. RGB

    RGB Supporting Member

    Messages:
    5,620
    Joined:
    Oct 10, 2005
    Location:
    AZ
    I have all of my patches created for stage volume on my Amplifire and I just turn up the Presence control to adjust for low volume noodling...works perfectly for me! :)
     
    JiveTurkey likes this.
  14. stratoskier

    stratoskier Member

    Messages:
    1,210
    Joined:
    Sep 19, 2006
    Location:
    Bozeman, MT
    A question and an observation.

    First the question -- I think most all modelers now have a Global EQ (it's in the System menu on Boss GTs) that allows you to make global EQ and Reverb adjustments that affect all patches. I've found that to be a pretty effective solution as opposed to tweaking individual patches for loud vs quiet playing. However, it seems like many folks are setting up 2 completely different sets of patches -- one set for quiet practice or recording, and another set for live (=loud) playing. Anyone been successful just making on the fly global EQ adjustments?

    And an observation -- With every modeler I've tried it seems like the hiss/fizz and other undesirables that are heard at low volumes go away at higher volumes. I don't know if they're actually gone or just buried so deep in the mix as to be inaudible. (I haven't tried a Helix or Amplifier but have toyed with most others). As the OP said -- these modeler things just seem to sound and work better at gigging volume. That runs counter to the usual notion that one of the great advantages of modelers is that they can sound good at very low volumes. They can, but I find that I have to dial out the fizz by dropping the gain (a lot!) or using the global EQ for practice. In general, I'm a lot more forgiving re the tone when I'm practicing because the emphasis is on the chops rather than teasing out stellar tone. I'm sure that'd be different if I was recording a lot, but I'm not.
     
  15. MKB

    MKB Silver Supporting Member

    Messages:
    7,232
    Joined:
    Mar 11, 2009
    My experience lately has been the exact opposite of the Fletcher Munson curve. If I EQ a tone so it sounds great at high volumes, and cut the volume down at the FRFR, there is then an excess of highs. Highs do not need to be added at the lower volumes, they need to be removed. I suspect there is something going on elsewhere in the PA causing this however.

    You really need to EQ your tone at the volume you will be playing at, as well as with the system you will be playing through, and hopefully with the entire band. EQ needs can change drastically depending on these factors. One particularly nasty effect is how some FRFR's lose their frequency response flatness when being used loud, as the low/mid frequency drivers run out of acoustic volume before the high frequency drivers do. You then have piercing highs that you can't EQ out. The best way around this is to lower the monitor volume if you can, or use good quality monitors with drivers that won't saturate on you.
     
  16. db9091

    db9091 Member

    Messages:
    3,275
    Joined:
    Dec 3, 2012
    Location:
    NC
    I love playing loud but in headphones I get the impression it's easier to get louder without realizing it.

    Since an amp delivers a thump you feel vibrating the room and your chest, when I use headphones I think I turn it up expecting but not getting that.

    Anyways, did some hearing damage, but have since measured and tamed my listening. A must for hobbyists, ridiculously stupid not to if you're a pro.
     
  17. Imerkat

    Imerkat Member

    Messages:
    985
    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2011
    Location:
    Gotham
    My experience with older modellers is that they fell apart at high volumes. Notes would decay very unnaturally, the floor noise was terrible, and the internal noise gate were anything but smooth.
     
  18. jageya

    jageya Member

    Messages:
    4,258
    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2013


    this guy is funny..he says you can get all your tones from an orange amp just by using diff guitars.
     
  19. shizzaq

    shizzaq Supporting Member

    Messages:
    722
    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2007
    Location:
    Kansas City, MO
    I totally agree with the OP. I finally got around to trying the AX8 with an Alto TS210 at gig volumes and you definitely get more of an amp vibe. I have been playing the AX8 though JBL LSR305's and even with those cranked high, they don't get nearly as loud as the Alto which gets in the same range as my Fender tube amps. The thing with modeling and FRFR to me verses real amps is that many IR's seem to have kind of a low end hollow flub sound to them. I think this comes from the microphone and recording technique because the IR I had loaded up on my Morgan AC20 preset did not exhibit this and the EQ settings where the same on it as on similar amps I was using with different IRs. Now I need to go look at what IR that was. The Fender Twin preset that I made using the LSR305s sounded great on the Alto at volume. Maybe just a little too much bass again. I tried one of the factory preset Rectifier presets and it killed. That's one of the cool advantages of modeling, I can go from Fender Twin to Morgan AC20 to Mesa Rectifier. That doesn't have much practical use but it sure is fun. Not to rain on anyone's parade, but nothing I have heard in the AX8 or Kemper sound as good as a real blackface fender amp for cleans and with a catalinbread dirty little secret mark III in front for gain. But it's pretty damn close.
     

Share This Page

  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
    Dismiss Notice