Into the deep end?

Discussion in 'Digital & Modeling Gear' started by crxshdxmmy, Nov 27, 2017.


  1. Tiger J

    Tiger J Member

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    Helix "Patch" = HeadRush "Rig." Helix "Snapshot" = HeadRush "Scene." Snapshots and Scenes do the same thing in their respective units. Patches in Helix are not seamlessly switched. Rigs in HeadRush are. 100% accurate.
     
  2. mikah912

    mikah912 Member

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    Helix has two distinct signal paths, bruh. Each one can be their own rig accepting their own unique inputs. At the same time or seamlessly switched. Honest. You're just wrong.
     
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  3. Jarrett

    Jarrett Member

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    Not sure what the argument is here. I run guitar/bass and vocals on completely separate paths for all of my live gigs via the Helix. I could run multiple amps for guitar while still separate processing my vocals in real time. It does all of that on the fly while also changing the settings on my JTV's so I don't have to. The Helix absolutely does all of that, I use it every gig. Not sure if the HR or AX8 can.
     
  4. crxshdxmmy

    crxshdxmmy Member

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    Switching gears a bit from the discussion above....

    I'm still trying to come up with the ideal solution for how to best "hear" the Helix (or whatever else).

    My amp is a Dr. Z M12, which was designed in a "pedalboard friendly" way and doesn't impart very much of itself at all on my tone.

    In fact, at one point, I was running a setup that essentially used a Catalinbread DLS as my "Marshall" dirty channel and a Menatone Top-Boost-In-A-Can as my "Vox" clean channel via a Boss LS-2. It was pretty seamless and pulled off both tones convincingly.

    So I'm not exactly afraid of running the Helix into the front end of that, but I miss out on all the cool cab/mic modeling. And keeping both isn't a realistic long-term solution.

    A few posts back, I had talked about using a guitar cab + power amp at home (or as an on-stage monitor live) ... but then I ran across a video of the Laney IRT-X and that looks interesting, too. Or maybe plopping down $750+ on an FRFR cab is really the best plan.

    I'm at a little bit of a loss and could use some suggestions.
     
  5. -Empire

    -Empire Supporting Member

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    It all depends on whether you’re comfortable monitoring a mic’d signal like in a studio or you prefer having the guitar cab in the room with you. They’re two totally different experiences.
     
  6. crxshdxmmy

    crxshdxmmy Member

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    I imagine they are. Is this just a 'you have to experience it and decide for yourself' kind of thing?
     
  7. -Empire

    -Empire Supporting Member

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    IMO, yes. When you play at church is your amp with you on stage or backstage somewhere mic’d up? How do you normally monitor yourself?

    Since you still have your amp, personally I would start by setting it up in four cable method. That way your amp’s preamp will be in one of Helix’s fx loops, meaning you can toggle it in and out of your signal path. Add an amp block next to the fx loop block on Helix, and assign them both to the same footswitch. Now you’re toggling between the real amp and Helix’s amp model while using the same guitar, power amp, and speaker. This should convince you of the accuracy/quality of the modeling, because you heard it with your own two ears.

    Then, if you want to switch to going direct to FOH, it’s just a matter of finding the right IR to replace your cab+mic setup when you play live and adjusting to monitoring that mic’d signal instead of the amp in the room.

    If you want to take this step, maybe try getting an FRFR, putting your amp in another room, micing it up, and monitoring that feed through the FRFR. You could still use the Helix in 4CM and toggle back and forth between the real amp and Helix’s amp, just to make sure you’re not missing anything and the accuracy is still there.

    Then you could try leaving helix’s amp model on all the time, and try using a footswitch to switch between your amp’s power amp>cab>mic setup and helix’s cab>mic modeling, through the same FRFR. That way the “amp” component would remain consistent (helix model) and you’re only changing the cab/mic portion and monitoring that through the same FRFR.

    Sorry for the long post. There’s just a lot of details and comparing apples to apples is essential if you plan to switch.
     
  8. crxshdxmmy

    crxshdxmmy Member

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    @-Empire

    1. Amp is usually on stage. No monitors and I don’t wear IEMs.

    2. The M12 doesn’t have a loop, therefor 4CM is impossible.
     
  9. -Empire

    -Empire Supporting Member

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    With no FX loop you'll just have to see if you can handle the transition. I say just go for it. More than 50 guys in the P&W thread have switched so it's definitely doable.
     
  10. crxshdxmmy

    crxshdxmmy Member

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    So, you’re saying FRFR is the ideal monitoring option to take full advantage of the Helix’s processing capability?

    If so — and I fully understand that this may be an entirely separate can of worms — but is there any consensus about best options for that?

    I’ve read about the Friedman, but 52 lbs seems considerably less than an ideal.
     
  11. Jarrett

    Jarrett Member

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    I did it in stages. Could try the amp first and go from there.

    Or to quote the title, just jump off in the deep end.

    If you said that you play Hendrix and Robin Trower stuff with a 4x12 and that speaker breakup and feedback is big part of the recipe, then I'd say definitely stay in front of an amp.

    But if your P&W experience is anything like mine was for a decade, then its a lot about playing pedals into a moderate volume Vox kinda deal. I personally feel that the Helix or AX8 into a quality FRFR monitor could do that just as good, if not better. Plus literally a million other things. And the soundguy will be your new BFF.

    Best FRFR... I dunno. When I started doing it, FRFR just meant powered PA speakers laid on their side, there was no guitar specific FRFR back then. I still use PA speakers for my monitor today and have never used one of the new breed made for guitar. Personally, I wouldn't get too hung up on which is the best. I would just focus on which one gets the job done and makes the most sense financially.

    Looks like the DR Z M12 is a 12 watt EL84-based 1x12 combo. You don't need a ton of FRFR wattage to cover that sonic footprint.
     
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2017
  12. Frank Ritchotte

    Frank Ritchotte Silver Supporting Member

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    A lot of guys start into an amp and experiment from there. Honestly most of the gigging musicians I talk to who started 4cm have made the tradition to FOH and either a FRFR monitor or IEMs just because of the flexibility and consistency. The Beauty is Helix is flexible enough to fit into whatever rig you have and can migrate with you as you experiment.
     
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2017
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  13. Jarrett

    Jarrett Member

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    I have no personal experience with it and I know these don't have the best name around, but the specs of this looks like it would be a nice, relatively inexpensive FRFR:

    https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/F1320D

    300 watts, 34.5 lbs. I like the way the input and controls are facing you. Easy setup. Could put in front of the Helix (I would) or behind you on stage as well.

    [​IMG]
    Not saying this is *the one* just showing that there are alternatives to the $900+ guitar-specific FRFR monitors.
     
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2017
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  14. -Empire

    -Empire Supporting Member

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    I agree with Frank and Jarrett above.

    Another option would be to start by using Helix as a pedalboard into the front of your amp. Here’s a playlist I made with some comparisons between Helix’s pedal models and their real counterparts: (the first few videos are amp modeling comparisons - the pedals are further down).
    https://m.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLcW1a79_LBdYeDSqUASXIQ4MS-C9ww7nT
     
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  15. bbgie1223

    bbgie1223 Supporting Member

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    Yamaha DXR10 here with my Helix. Fantastic sound. 32 lbs. $599 and a 7 year warranty.
     
  16. crxshdxmmy

    crxshdxmmy Member

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    Appreciate the response. Indeed, the M12 has a particularly manageable stage presence -- which is why I like it so much -- but with the Helix or AX8, I just feel like so much of what it can do is lost when only running it through a guitar cab. Part of me digs that idea because it's familiar, but it also seems shortsighted to leave all that processing power by the wayside.

    If that's the direction I go, perhaps some combination of both would be the best outcome. Appreciate the feedback.
     
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  17. rsm

    rsm Member

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    I've been using a Roland CUBE Street EX for my modelers for a couple/few years. Worth a look, but there are less expensive options. Have a look at Alto Truesonic (I have a pair of TS210 and 1 TS210s PA, for my synth rigs, and run my modelers into a mixer, stereo).

    edit: some nice powered monitors around for not much $
     
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2017
  18. onwingsoflead

    onwingsoflead Member

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    HR scenes is limited to bypass states, unless there has been a massive update on the last 2 months. Snapshots can control bypass states, but also individual parameters. For example, you could kick on delay, nudge up the gain on your amp model, bring down the volume a smidge to balance the level, and change the Mic model on your cab with one button tap.
     
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  19. onwingsoflead

    onwingsoflead Member

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    As for FRFR I went with 2 Alto TS212s. They cost me less than the Friedman, sound pretty darn good and combined weight is about the same as the ASM. Plus I have the option to just bring one if I want
     
  20. HaroldBrooks

    HaroldBrooks Member

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    Beware, The Siren's song ...



    You might end up wanting your old gear back, after the crash into the rocks.
     
    Last edited: Dec 9, 2017

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