IR Properties

Discussion in 'Digital & Modeling Gear' started by Jay Mitchell, May 17, 2019.

  1. yeky83

    yeky83 Member

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    I think the point of that microphone is that it's transparent and doesn't impart a sonic characteristic. You wouldn't need that specific mic, just another transparent calibrated mic. I'm sure Fractal has some.

    They've used the Earthworks TC30 before, that'd probably do.
     
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  2. cliffc8488

    cliffc8488 Member

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    We have an Earthworks TC-30.
     
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  3. Scott Simpson

    Scott Simpson Member

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    Assuming the use of a sufficiently neutral full range monitoring solution, this is the heart of the "amp in the room" problem. In The Outlaw Josey Wales one of the main characters says, "Don't piss down my back and tell me that it's raining." This is exactly what many of these vendors and manufacturers are doing.

    Instead of telling us: "Hey, here's a hundred different variations of a guitar cabinet mic'd at all different angles and with all types of mics. Isn't that great?!?"

    ...tell us the truth: "We don't know how to capture IRs without the coloration of the mic getting in the way so you're stuck with something that might sound good but it will never sound like the original cabinet un-mic'd in a room."

    As much as I have enjoyed fiddling about with the Helix, it bugs me to no end that the microphone options for the cabinets are sold as a glitzy feature instead of the liability that they are.
    As much as I respect the work coming out of Fractal Audio and thank Cliff for freeing me from the nightmare world of tube rigs in live venues, it bugs me to no end that they are the ones who started the false ju-ju that has now become doctrine for so many that was worded something like: "...think of modeling as the sound of your favorite amp mic'd up in a studio..." as if "amp in the room" is somehow unobtainable due to magic analog circuits, or divine tubes, or mystical speaker properties, etc.
     
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  4. cliffc8488

    cliffc8488 Member

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    1. Capturing far-field IRs is very difficult. You need a very large, quiet, open space. Something few people have access to.

    2. Historically amplifiers have been recorded using close-mic techniques. Therefore a modeler using near-field IRs recreates this. This isn't "false ju-ju". It's simply the truth. This has been how modelers have worked for a long time, and long before Fractal Audio was started.

    3. Amp-in-the-room is easily achievable without conventional near-field IRs. Simply use a traditional guitar cabinet.

    Not sure why you had to take a shot at me and our company.
     
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  5. Scott Simpson

    Scott Simpson Member

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    Yeah, you're right. The only plausible excuse for my tone is that I haven't slept for the last twenty-four hours due to my sixteen month old twin daughters. My apologies for not filtering my idea sufficiently.

    Try this:
    It wasn't meant to be a shot at you or your company. I'm a huge fan and admirer. As you explained, you understood what you wrote and why you wrote it. It's not your fault that large swaths of the modeling community have turned the limitations inherent in your statement into a weird universal doctrine.
     
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  6. Scott Simpson

    Scott Simpson Member

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    That is true... and strangely funny to my currently fried mind when you put it that way.
    I would also add this:
    Amp-in-the-room is now easily achievable with an AxeFX, a CLR, and good far-field IRs.
     
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  7. AlbertA

    AlbertA Member

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    Nice!

    napkin-pad calculations suggest your warehouse should be at least 41 ft L x 40 ft H x 20 ft H
     
    Last edited: May 24, 2019
  8. Jay Mitchell

    Jay Mitchell Member

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    Because guitar cabs have never been neutral, the colorations they introduce have always been a major part of the sound of electric guitar. Tube amps played through neutral speakers sound terrible, as I discovered ca. 1971.

    Modelers have targeted the sound of the cab as well as that of the amp since pretty much the first one.

    Most people who buy modelers have an expectation that they will be able to get their modeler to sound like a tube amp when played through a monitor. Many, if not most, modeler buyers - myself included - continue to own tube amps which can serve as a reference.

    If modeling the behavior of the amp is important, and the device doing that is also modeling the cab, and the cab is a major component of the sound, it is only reasonable to expect the same level of priority given to modeling amps also be given to modeling cabs.

    It is encouraging to see newfound interest in what I've been saying for more than a decade. I will point out as a cautionary note that the availability of a suitable space is a necessary but not sufficient condition for the acquisition of IRs that sound like the cab they came from. I have had a suitable space available for some years, and I do loudspeaker data acquisition every day. Even in that setting, and even with the experience I have, setting up for an IR acquisition session with a guitar cab is a significant project. I almost never take fewer than 30 IRs of a cab, and that work only provides a starting point. Which is not to say that a novice can't get good data - it happens - but that there are some unforseen problems that can render a session's results of no value.
     
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  9. hippietim

    hippietim Member

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    This is what I tell anyone that wants to get into modeling that's a little unsure. All I have to do is plug my AxeIII into my real cab and watch the expressions - it's ridiculous how good it sounds. This reality is why my tube amps are all sold now and I've got a Rubbermaid tote filled with tubes that I have no use for any longer.
     
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  10. DeSelby

    DeSelby Member

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    Question about using headphones. Depending on your tastes, wouldn’t there be an argument to be made for using an IR that has reflections in it since in that scenario there aren’t any naturally occurring reflections being added to he sound. In short, you would be bringing the room back into the experience.

    edit - I realize you can use processing to add the effect of reflections but to my ear that doesn’t sound the same.
     
    Last edited: May 23, 2019
  11. Jay Mitchell

    Jay Mitchell Member

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    This has already been discussed. a 200- or 500ms IR is not long enough to give a convincing impression of the acoustics of a bedroom, let alone any desirable acoustic space. A judiciously-set reverb block is ideal for that purpose.
     
  12. hippietim

    hippietim Member

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  13. oøt

    oøt Member

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    Hi Jay,
    thanks you so much for sharing the ir’s. Very interesting indeed! It is now clear to me that the reflection free sound and the even midrange response is very desirable. Kind of sets a new standard to judge other ir’s, even if they are not FF or reflection free nearfields. I could easily hear frequency buildup dips and resonances in other ir’s after playing yours.
    I really like both the far field and the close miced one. (The B one is unusable).
    The clarity is incredible and inspiring!
    I always thought that playing in different rooms with different soundsystems and monitoring it would be very important that the ir has a fairly even frequency response. Without to many dips and peaks. I’ve experienced the same ir and amp settings to go from great to unusable from one venue to another. I’ve only tried your ir’s at home with studio monitors, but I’m very curious how they will perform at volume in different sound situations.
    After playing the ir’s for a bit, it was also easier for me to dial in my regular ir’s. And I think the context, style, density of the music will be a deciding factor on which type of ir’s to use. There is a certain character / livelyness almost phasyness(?) in the high mids and highs in the FF ir that is not suited for every situation. Its much more complex than my regular ir’s.
    I now know that I would have loved a nearfield set with a couple of the standard studio mics in a reflection free capture… And, what would it sound like with say a Royer or a Coles in a FF ir?
    Sorry for the long response, but this is very interesting stuff!! Thanks a lot!
     
  14. Mark Al

    Mark Al Member

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    I guess Cliff is definitely no stranger to far field IRs. Surprisingly, after all these years, ff IRs are still rare from any vender, what the heck...
    Low Cut, High Cut
     
  15. Baba

    Baba Member

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    This is exactly what I do with the stock cabs in my Helix, (with IEMs), use a reverb block to simulate some room and space. Works great.

    I don't have a technical background, my very limited knowledge comes from the "well, I tried that, and it didn't sound good, and I tried this and it did sound good" school of learning :D, but, I gotta say, you have explained things very well in this thread, at least, in the opinion of this guy. What you're saying, (and have been saying), makes total sense, and really, is a pretty easy concept to grasp.

    I actually haven't been satisfied with the multitude of IR's I've tried, in a couple of devices, and what is displayed in this thread, is probably why.

    Having said all that, a question. I know it's ultimately up to the end user, as far as whether a FF IR would be enjoyable, but for direct to PA/IEM guys, do you guys think a FF IR would generally be more desirable than a NF IR?
     
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  16. DeSelby

    DeSelby Member

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    @Jay Mitchell Thought I'd let you know, tried to PM you but your inbox is full :(
     
  17. Fireproof

    Fireproof Supporting Member

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    Sorry for the quick aside: But curious what cab you use and which power amp?
     
  18. hippietim

    hippietim Member

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    http://www.trmguitarcabs.com/ - I have one of the side ported cabinets (about 1/3 down the page). I'm using a Duncan Power Stage 170 for an amp.
     
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  19. yeky83

    yeky83 Member

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    IMHO yes. For the same reasons stated in the quote you've made of Jay.
     
  20. Dave Merrill

    Dave Merrill Supporting Member

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    That's great news Cliff.

    Don't suppose you'd consider releasing them in platform-agnostic .wav format, would you? That would be a wonderful contribution to the community, and it's unlikely to affect Fractal hardware sales. If anything it would provide you with products to sell to people on other platforms.
     

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