Is there a modeller on the market that will....

Messages
2,078
...let you select your amp/model/profile independently from your FX presets?

From a basic "old school" perspective, you play through an amp that has two or three channels, and you have a footsswitch for those channels. You also have FX, often in a rack or integrated floor unit that have presets/patches that select a complete FX patch with another pedal. Thus, if you have, say, three amp channels and 8 FX presets, you can immediately get to 24 total sound combinations with those 8 FX presets. No tap-dancing, and you don't have to pre-program every single combination.

As near as I can tell, every single modeller out there today requires you to build each one of those combinations as a separate preset/rig/patch/scene, and will not let you mix and match on the fly.

Is there any modeller out there that works like a regular amp and FX unit, where you can select the amp channel independent of the FX presets? If not, why not?
 

Solude

Member
Messages
138
Helix can do that with snapshots. Run as many amps as you need and only turn on the one you want per snapshot. For example in one of my presets I have staggered gain using different overdrives and amp heads to go from clean to high gain on one preset. That said, I use Helix Native so I have unlimited DSP.
 
Messages
2,078
You can set up 4 different channels of the same amp on the Axe-Fx, e.g., clean, crunch, heavy rhythm, lead. Is that what you mean?
I can do that, yes, but I can't select them independent of the scenes.

Let say that I have a clean channel and a mid-gain channel in the amp block.

Let's also say that I have a scene with a heavy compressor and light spring reverb, and a scene with chorus, delay and heavy plate reverb.

Once I am in one of those scenes, I can change the amp block channel at will and the FX will not change - cool. If I change scenes, though, it will revert to whatever amp block chnnel is programmed into that scene - you can't separate the selection of the amp channel from everything else. This is very unlike a real amp, where the channel selection and FX preset selection are totally distinct and have no interaction.
 

Watt McCo

Member
Messages
10,903
Not the way you wanna do it. Kemper and Atomic are really the only platforms where I could see this conceivably being implemented - they have fixed/semi-fixed signal paths amongst all presets. I would be fairly tricky to build a whole different signal path around an stagnant amp block in Helix/Fractal. Hence need to rely on snapshots/scenes/channels.
 
Messages
2,078
With the Kemper you can lo any pedal, amp or cab in place allowing you to have fixed fx and change amps etc.
The Kemper doesn't come anywhere close to the functionality I am looking for. You are restricted to 5 rigs in a performance, and each rig has a fixed selection of FX. Not even close - and trying to make the KPA work for me in a performing environment made me crazy....and drove me to start researching this.
 
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Messages
2,078
Helix can do that with snapshots. Run as many amps as you need and only turn on the one you want per snapshot. For example in one of my presets I have staggered gain using different overdrives and amp heads to go from clean to high gain on one preset. That said, I use Helix Native so I have unlimited DSP.
You're still programming an entire preset to do this, and that mean complicating the selection of them via foot controller.

Let me try to explain again.

The purpose is not to build a whole lot of presets. The purpose is to have a set of amp presets and a set of FX presets, and be able to mix and match them on the fly, WITHOUT any predefined connection between them, and WITHOUT having to build every possiblecombination as a discrete program.

In short, I want to have completely separate and independent control over the selection of the amp model/channel and the FX presets, the same as I do with my tube amp and FX rack.

Imagine having both a Kemper and a Axe-FX, where the Kemper has 5 amp models loaded (via a performance) and the Axe-FX has 8 completely disparate scenes pre-programmed (in a preset with block channel selection).

Now, program a MIDI board with 5 buttons to directly select the Kemper profiles and 8 buttons to directly select FX presets. That gives you 40 combinations available without having to change banks - and you only had to build 5 profiles and 8 scenes, not all 40. Why can't I accomplish the same thing with the Axe-FX internal amp block, or the same thing with the KPAs FX presets? The KPS has FX presets, but you can't call them up within a rig in a performance; the Axe-FX has 4 amp channels in every block, but you can't switch them independent of the entire scene.

The same is true if you have a regular amp and a programmable FX unit, or a modeller used for the amp portion coupled with a regular FX unit.

This is basic and simple with any old-school amp/FX setup, so why won't any of the modellers duplicate this configuration?
 
Messages
2,078
Why not? Amp channel per scene is a feature. Just keep it in the same channel in each scene.
That's the problem - I'm stuck with one preset amp channel per scene, and it's going to revert to that channel whether I want it to or not.

Let's say I'm trying to change between a clean channel with chorus and reverb to a high gain lead channel with delay, chorus, and a mid boost. OK, that's fine, I could theoretically pres-set those. What do I do, though, when I want to use that same FX preset with a clean channel, and I'm trying to just play through a quiet clean passage and add that FX? I can't just leave the amp channel where I set it and change the FX preset.
 

PaulHudgins

Member
Messages
588
This is basic and simple with any old-school amp/FX setup, so why won't any of the modellers duplicate this configuration?
Because software isn't the same as analog equipment. What you want isn't impossible but basically you are asking to run 2 instances of the AxeFX software,( or other brand) simultaneously at the same time in the same unit. One to handle amps and one to handle effects. From a plugin perspective it would be like loading two version of Amplitube in the same channel while recording and having one for amps only and one for effects only.
 

phil_m

Have you tried turning it off and on again?
Gold Supporting Member
Messages
12,388
On the Helix, you can turn off the Snapshot Bypass parameter for blocks to have their bypass state remain unaffected by snapshot changes. So you could set up a footswitch to toggle between two different amp models and then just have the snapshots change the effects around the amp models. Not quite the same thing as the OP, but similar in spirit.

I think the reason companies don’t set it up so amp and effects presets are completely separate from each other just us to do with the way they conceptualize preset. A preset is an all-encompassing thing that can be shared between units, so if you had separate amp and effects presets, it just adds another layer of complexity to the whole thing. Everyone has an ideal way they’d like to work, but it comes down to compromises when you design a level that has to have the ability to be used by anyone.
 
Messages
662
...let you select your amp/model/profile independently from your FX presets?

From a basic "old school" perspective, you play through an amp that has two or three channels, and you have a footsswitch for those channels. You also have FX, often in a rack or integrated floor unit that have presets/patches that select a complete FX patch with another pedal. Thus, if you have, say, three amp channels and 8 FX presets, you can immediately get to 24 total sound combinations with those 8 FX presets. No tap-dancing, and you don't have to pre-program every single combination.

As near as I can tell, every single modeller out there today requires you to build each one of those combinations as a separate preset/rig/patch/scene, and will not let you mix and match on the fly.

Is there any modeller out there that works like a regular amp and FX unit, where you can select the amp channel independent of the FX presets? If not, why not?
Have you looked at the Neural DSP Quad Cortex? 4 paths, 32 possible blocks, 4 amps, or 6 to 8 captures per preset and still plenty of room for effects. Maybe that can get you what you're looking for?
 




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