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Jazz Blues in 7/4...

RichardB

Senior Member
Messages
1,334
Hi guys,
I have been messing around with odd meters lately, especially after hearing Brad Mehldau's freedom with these things, so I bought the Aebersold Odd Meter playalong and recorded this blues...I feel I am starting to get more comfy with these meters, but still a long way to go. Please excuse the out of tune gtr..it's the strings, they are very old...

<http://www.soundclick.com/bands/6/richardbornman2music.htm>
 

rwe333

Silver Supporting Member
Messages
16,395
Some VERY nice stuff in there, cudos.
(OK, perhaps a few too many Benson-type lines - like to hear yours, ya know...)
Big fan of odd meter material here.
Cheers!
 

RichardB

Senior Member
Messages
1,334
Originally posted by rwe333
Some VERY nice stuff in there, cudos.
(OK, perhaps a few too many Benson-type lines - like to hear yours, ya know...)
Big fan of odd meter material here.
Cheers!
Hi Wayne,
thanks for listening.
re the odd meters:

how did you work on this stuff?
did/do you break things up in unikts of 2 and 3 or do you use another method?

The Aebersold is ok, but what I hate about it is the way that the bass (and piano) plays mostly repetitive vamps over the meters. I was hoping there might be some examples where the bass is less obvious about the meter, and plays more fluidly and freely, like in 4/4 or 3/4...

I find the repetitive vamps are a crutch that hampers hearing these meters...I have done some practice with the metronome clicking on one beat a bar, which is much better and much harder than the vamp thing...

I love how Mehldau's band treats the odd meters as freely as they would more common meters...On another note, I checked out McLaughlin on his 3 DVD set where he talks about odd meters.

I was amazed/irked at how weak his explanation of this stuff was. He basically says NOTHING that will help a student get a handle on this stuff....Most of John's odd meter stuff that I have heard utilised the vamps I talk about above. Are there any examples of more free treatment of odd meter stuff in his oeuvre?

RB
 

rwe333

Silver Supporting Member
Messages
16,395
Originally posted by RichardB
Hi Wayne,
thanks for listening.
re the odd meters:

how did you work on this stuff?
did/do you break things up in unikts of 2 and 3 or do you use another method?

The Aebersold is ok, but what I hate about it is the way that the bass (and piano) plays mostly repetitive vamps over the meters. I was hoping there might be some examples where the bass is less obvious about the meter, and plays more fluidly and freely, like in 4/4 or 3/4...

I find the repetitive vamps are a crutch that hampers hearing these meters...I have done some practice with the metronome clicking on one beat a bar, which is much better and much harder than the vamp thing...

I love how Mehldau's band treats the odd meters as freely as they would more common meters...On another note, I checked out McLaughlin on his 3 DVD set where he talks about odd meters.

I was amazed/irked at how weak his explanation of this stuff was. He basically says NOTHING that will help a student get a handle on this stuff....Most of John's odd meter stuff that I have heard utilised the vamps I talk about above. Are there any examples of more free treatment of odd meter stuff in his oeuvre?

RB
Hey Richard...

Guess I really try to internalize the feel/shape of odd meters tunes to be free w/ them over counting them in groupings. Always a work in progress, of course. ;)

Gigging a range of odd meter material really helped esp. if more elastic kind of grooves, like those of the Dave Holland Quintet, etc. Players like that just feel odd meters so naturally - easy as 4/4 to 'em.

So, I'm w/ ya on preferring the Meldau-type approach to keep things changing up, avoiding static vamps, making interplay/interaction the focus. 'Course it helps if you have players 'round that are comfortable w/ odd meters.

Like anything, it's a matter of mileage. The more ya do it, the more it flows.

But you know this. You're a beautiful, natural player. Always enjoy hearing your stuff.
 

RichardB

Senior Member
Messages
1,334
Originally posted by rwe333
Hey Richard...

Guess I really try to internalize the feel/shape of odd meters tunes to be free w/ them over counting them in groupings. Always a work in progress, of course. ;)

Gigging a range of odd meter material really helped esp. if more elastic kind of grooves, like those of the Dave Holland Quintet, etc. Players like that just feel odd meters so naturally - easy as 4/4 to 'em.

So, I'm w/ ya on preferring the Meldau-type approach to keep things changing up, avoiding static vamps, making interplay/interaction the focus. 'Course it helps if you have players 'round that are comfortable w/ odd meters.

Like anything, it's a matter of mileage. The more ya do it, the more it flows.
But you know this. You're a beautiful, natural player. Always enjoy hearing your stuff.
Wayne,
I know what you mean about "a work in progress"!!! You're probably a LOOOOOONG way ahead of me in this!!!
Holland's band is incredible with this stuff, I agree.

I dont mean to pry, but how did you practice this stuff when you started? Did you use a 'nome? Playalongs? Do you have any current things you do to improve on this thing?

BTW thank you VERY much for your kind compliment about my playing, coming from you it means a whole LOT!!!

RB
 

Dajbro

Silver Supporting Member
Messages
2,110
When I was doing a lot of work on odd meters and groupings, I found Dave Holland's approach very helpful. I have a tape of him teaching at the Banff Centre in which he talks about breaking everything down to groups of twos and threes. He sounds the groupings out using: GA - MA - LA for groups of three and TK - KI for groups of two. (spelling may be wrong on those) There are some good books on Indian drumming that I have seen that detail this approach also. He then systematiclly went through every odd note grouping and broke it into this pattern:

5 can be 2 + 3 or 3 + 2

7 can be 2 + 2 + 3 or 2 + 3 + 2 or 3 + 2 + 2

And so on.....

Then he would have the class clap and sing exercises on combinations of the above that he had written out for them.

It really helped me and it breaks it down into simple components. I think it also helps in that it stresses accents rather than the fact that you are playing in an odd meters. To me that helps it sound much more organic.

Also, check out Steve Coleman for some serious metric challenges.

David
 

rwe333

Silver Supporting Member
Messages
16,395
Originally posted by RichardB
Wayne,
I know what you mean about "a work in progress"!!! You're probably a LOOOOOONG way ahead of me in this!!!
Holland's band is incredible with this stuff, I agree.

I dont mean to pry, but how did you practice this stuff when you started? Did you use a 'nome? Playalongs? Do you have any current things you do to improve on this thing?

BTW thank you VERY much for your kind compliment about my playing, coming from you it means a whole LOT!!!

RB
Thanks back for the kind words - sorry for the delayed reply...

Really just dived right in w/ the odd meter stuff - first rehearsing, then gigging it... Found it did take some time to find folks comfortable w/ such material (particularly if wanting to open-up and not be tied to a static vamp). I always try to play w/ folks I can learn from. ;)

'Course would be practicing the material at home - often w/ a metronome - but actually playing it made the biggest difference. Really is getting to the point to 5, 7 or 9 feels as 'home' as 3 or 4. But, having the right cats to play w/ sure helps.

And Dajbro nicely hints at the DH approach informed by a world music aesthetic - writing longer odd meter compositions by way of syllable-type construction (gamala = 3, taki = 2). Also, if you watch DH live, he's often swaying back-and-forth counting - any odd meter construction simply flips emphasis from the odd to the even numbers of the phrase when repeated...

Another help is learning odd meter tunes that aren't as obviously constructed. So, while something like 'Take 5' is very much a divided as 3-2, material by groups like the Gateway trio have more through-composed odd meter constructions, for example, tunes that start on the and-of-1 making for an interesting and less obvious shape...

It's like standards - the longer you play a tune, the more a part of you it becomes. If ya know it backwards and forwards then you can really take it whenever you need it to go...

But, you know this.
 

Tag

Platinum Supporting Member
Messages
40,953
Originally posted by RichardB
Hi guys,
I have been messing around with odd meters lately, especially after hearing Brad Mehldau's freedom with these things, so I bought the Aebersold Odd Meter playalong and recorded this blues...I feel I am starting to get more comfy with these meters, but still a long way to go. Please excuse the out of tune gtr..it's the strings, they are very old...

<http://www.soundclick.com/bands/6/richardbornman2music.htm>

KILLER Richard! Simply beautiful playing! Were some of those lines from "Shapes of things to come", and that era Benson? I was listening to that last week! Lol! Great stuff all the way around. :)
 

RichardB

Senior Member
Messages
1,334
Originally posted by Tag
KILLER Richard! Simply beautiful playing! Were some of those lines from "Shapes of things to come", and that era Benson? I was listening to that last week! Lol! Great stuff all the way around. :)
Thanks for listening Tag.

I dont actually have "Shapes". another i dont have is "Abbey Road"...but I have been taking a break from GB for the last while. My fave jazz muso is Bill Evans, so bee listening to him. I actually hardly listen to gtr EVER. The only one is GB and Metheny really...

Are you going to the Long Island jazz gtr show?
 

lhallam

Platinum Supporting Member
Messages
17,339
This sounds natural and comfortable, there is nothing forced about it. Great job
 
H

hemlock

Very nice! Great tone and feel. I play a bit of hand drums and the gamala taki approach is the only thing that I can keep in my head on odd meters.
 




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