Jazz Guitar Questions

Discussion in 'The Sound Hound Lounge' started by TheSpiritOfRadio, Feb 6, 2012.

  1. TheSpiritOfRadio

    TheSpiritOfRadio Member

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    I have been really getting into jazz and found some good information on websites and videos recommended to me. I have a few questions.

    ***KEEP IN MIND***----I'm only 15, so my questions may be stupid to some... cause, honestly, a lot of 15 year olds are... :sarcasm

    1. Not getting the whole Tritone Substitution thing... could someone just "baby-talk" me through this...? It'd be much appreciated.
    2. Note Enclosure... get it, but not enough... examples and more "baby-talk" would be great...
    I will DEFINITELY ask more questions soon... please take the time the answer... I will go :nuts if I don't learn jazz...Thanks

    -The_Spirit_Of_Radio
     
  2. jimmyj

    jimmyj Member

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    Hey, lets have some answers here. I want to know, too. And I'm 59. :)

    Good luck TSOR. I think your quest will reward you.

    Cool moniker, BTW.
     
  3. TheSpiritOfRadio

    TheSpiritOfRadio Member

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    Haha thanks. And I hope so. I've always dreamed in a big jazz band and recording my own jazz albums. :phones I have to have someone force me to learn it though, like a school teacher, or I get lost.

    -The_Spirit_Of_Radio
     
  4. mcknigs

    mcknigs Supporting Member

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    I'm not an expert but here's my take. Chord substitution tends to work because the original and substitute have notes in common. Example: relative major and minor -- C major and A minor have two notes in common (C and E). Similarly, dominant chords with roots a tritone apart have notes in common, with the major 3rd and minor 7th of one being the minor 7th and major third of the other. Like D7 and Ab7, which both have F#/Gb and C. Even better, If both dominant chords have a flat 5 (aka a half-diminished chord*), they have the same notes. D7 with a flat 5 is D F# Ab and C. Ab with a flat 5 is Ab C Ebb and Gb (which are enharmoncally equivalent).

    Does that help?

    *Edit, I was thinking about what I said and realized that what I was describing is not a half-diminished chord. It's just a dominant 7 chord wiht a flat 5. A half-diminished would have a minor third instead of a major third.
     
    Last edited: Feb 7, 2012
  5. Flyin' Brian

    Flyin' Brian Member

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    It's a dominant 7th chord whose root is three (tri) whole steps from the original 7th chord.

    For instance if you're playing a blues in G, the tritone sub for a G7 is C#7.
    (Counting 3 whole steps from G you get A - B - C#)

    Instead of playing the progression G | G | G | G7 | C |,
    you'd play G | G | G | G/C#7 | C | and so on.

    That's about as simple as I can come up with.
     
  6. Neer

    Neer Supporting Member

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    A tritone is an interval of 3 whole tones. 3 whole tones is equal to 6 frets.

    Dominant chords have tritone intervals. For example, take a look at C7: the notes of a C7 chord are C E G Bb. The interval between the E (the third) and the Bb (the flat seventh) is a tritone. If you reverse these 2, calling the Bb the third and E the flat seven, you would be looking at an F# or Gb chord. The third of F# is A# and the b7 is E. The F#7 or Gb7 would be the tritone substitute of the C7, and vice versa.

    There is a lot more to it, but that is the very basic aspect. The usage of it is something that you will understand as you further your studies. This is good time to get acquainted with the Blues form and all of its substitutions.
     
  7. TheSpiritOfRadio

    TheSpiritOfRadio Member

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    So its pretty much a substitute for a normal dominant chord?
     
  8. Neer

    Neer Supporting Member

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    It is the evil twin of the normal dominant chord. ;)
     
  9. TheSpiritOfRadio

    TheSpiritOfRadio Member

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    Haha that makes sense. Thanks a lot! Now, about the Lydian-Dominant Scale... how does that work?
     
  10. Flyin' Brian

    Flyin' Brian Member

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    Yep...within the rules stated above, but not necessarily just dominant 7ths.

    It really give you some nice voicings in blues.

    For instance instead of a C-A7-Dm7-G7 turnaround, you can do cool stuff like Em7-Eb9-AbM7-DbM7.

    Personally I can't help with a lydian dominant scale because I have never thought in terms of modes. I just see it as a melodic minor scale starting on the 4.
     
  11. Jim Soloway

    Jim Soloway Supporting Member

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    Brian, please don't take this personally but I have a couple problems with this explanation.

    First, the chord used for the substitution is not necessarily a dominant 7th. It may be but I regularly use 6/9 or 6/9#11 chords with no 7th. I also use maj7add9 chords with the major 7 in the voice position of the chord leading into the I. (It works really well since the maj7 of the tritone of the dominant is also the root of the I chord).

    Second, it is at least more traditionally correct to identify the tritone as a b5 rather than a #4, so by convention, the tritone of G7 is Db rather than C#.
     
  12. mcknigs

    mcknigs Supporting Member

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    Yes. And keep in mind that there are dominant chords other than a V chord.

    You can use the tritone substitution to turn a VI II V I turnaround in G from E A D G to Bb A Ab G.
     
  13. schultzvil

    schultzvil In the Clean Channel Silver Supporting Member

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    Hey, you're asking great questions for a 15 year old!
    I think everbody answered the tri-tone substitution thing,
    to put it super-simply, yeah, it's substituting a dom. 7th chord a flat fifth away from your original dom. 7th chord.
    Db for G, etc.
    The game is to use your ears and figure out where it sounds good. As Neer said, good time to start to fool around with blues and extended blues, and see where you can fit that "flat five sub" in. Now here's where the fun begins: when you DO find spots in progressions where you like the sound of the flat five sub, THAT is where you can play a Lydian-Dominant (Or Lydian flat seven) scale over that (subbed) dominant chord. And it's gonna sound real hip. Also, technically, this scale fits and Dominant chord that is "altered" (both 9 & 5 sharped or flatted).
    Also, fool around with a simple progression between, say A minor and F dominant 7th. Try that Lydian-Dominant over the F 7th (starting on F)
    You'll find some nice sounds! Then- don't tell anybody else!!
     
  14. Nurk2

    Nurk2 "Ignore Everybody" ~Hugh MacLeod

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    I'm going to make this even simpler. Ready?

    Your tri-tone sub is one string and one fret below where you are now.

    Try this: play an A-shape G7 (10th position)

    Where's the tri-tone sub? One string and one fret below that, meaning, play an E-shape C#7 (Db7) on the 9th position.

    This'll work on all four bottom strings (E,A,D,G). No theory. No problem.
     
  15. markbosko

    markbosko Member

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  16. sws1

    sws1 Member

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    That's my type of explanation...a visual one.
     
  17. Baminated

    Baminated Member

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    And to make that the end-all-be-all PRIMARY way to both teach & learn will stunt the growth of any aspiring musician. Learning the theory behind it are the keys to the city, and allows expansion of the concept into higher levels. The pure visual approach will make explaining any expansion of the concept much more difficult in the long run.

    The visual approach should be only a supplementary tactic

    Making the visual approach the primary way to teach is cooking a fish for someone to eat for an evening rather than teaching them how to fish & eat for lifetime
     
  18. Nurk2

    Nurk2 "Ignore Everybody" ~Hugh MacLeod

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    Dear TheSpiritOfRadio,

    I'm aware that you are only 15, but I need to warn you that if you skip the six responses that told you what--theoretically--a tri-tone sub is, and went straight to my explanation of how to play one on the guitar, then you did so at great risk to your future as a jazz musician.

    Signed,
    Concerned in NY

    PS. Forget about an explanation of note enclosures. I'm not going to spoil you that way!

    PPS. The same goes for you, sws1!

    PPPS. :D
     
  19. sws1

    sws1 Member

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    No worries. I gave up years ago trying to be a jazz guitar player. I was realistic on the level of effort I could afford to put in, and I knew it was never gonna happen.

    But if I can sneak a little trick here and there from you jazzers, it impresses the house guests.
     
  20. Nurk2

    Nurk2 "Ignore Everybody" ~Hugh MacLeod

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    I know that you are trying to trick me into revealing the non-theoretical secret behind note enclosures (playing a note above or below your target note followed by a note below or above that note, resolving to the target note on a strong beat, with the notes above or below usually a step or half-step away from the target note) but I will never reveal it! It's for your own good. Trust me.

    Rather, please refer to: Techniques and Materials of Music: From the Common Practice Period Through the Twentieth Century and pay special attention to the discussion on "neighbor tones."


    http://www.amazon.com/Techniques-Ma...9774/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1328638454&sr=8-4

    :p
     
    Last edited: Feb 7, 2012

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