• TGP is giving away a Strat, Tele, and Jazzmaster. Click Here for full details.
    Click Here to upgrade your account and enter today!

Jazz sound of today and forward…read OP please.

vhollund

Member
Messages
3,519
There's been recent talk about making the chord changes, but only in a very traditional way. All good, but
How about a thread about the susb9 / Phrygian and sus9 / pentatonic approaches / clusters / quartal stuff?
Concepts for making the chord changes without landing directly on every existing third in the harmony, and a more modern way of interpretating harmony.

If you have explored this/similar direction further please join in...

I found this extremely well written article to begin with, on the Suspended and Susb9 sound.

http://jazzadvice.com/mastering-sus-chords-adding-options-to-your-arsenal/

(For those who have Mark Levine's book about Jazz Theory , I know there will be something about the Phrygian Susb9 on page 48.)

I'll be back later to add some more.

(And in case there should be a 100 y old player reading this. Actually it's probably safe to say the that a 100 year old player would have evolved through time enough to shed a considerable light on this topic.) :)

 
Last edited:

JonR

Member
Messages
14,850
These guys don't sound like 100-yr-old farts:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C1rXve_cyQU
- but I'll bet they can "make the chord changes" as well as any 100-yr-old-fart, when they need/want to (if they think the tune demands it).

However, no argument from me here about the need for a debate on modal jazz in general (which is where sus and quartal chords gain a life of their own of course), as a respite from the "old-fashioned" playing-the-changes debates.

Let's baffle everyone about modal harmony (and beyond), same as we baffle them about functional harmony all the time! :D

Go on, you start. (I'm improvise something later... ;))
 

vhollund

Member
Messages
3,519
I think you misunderstood my intent with this topic JonR

If you don't agree with the angle of the topic, after seeing what my references was about, that's ok but let's not ruin it with irrelevance, please. :)

I find the suspended chords is a sound I keep coming back to, especially as a platform for improvisation, because of the open sound it brings and because the suspended sound inspires me by not giving away the harmony on beat one.

Making the changes but with that slight marge for improvisation/inspiration that I feel it gives.
Like playing G triad on a C chord , kind of that effect of that slight tension, that helps inspire movement towards the actual meat of the C triad

And then theres the intervallic options it offers that are just different, more interesting.

So as a student of music i'm looking for more inspiration of that kind
Maybe even with concrete examples :)

Substituting the V7 with Vsus9 or Vsusb9 is a really cool sound.

And then theres the whole tertial concept that comes along
Like G13#11/E

That stuff is pure gold imo
 
Last edited:

Neer

Silver Supporting Member
Messages
12,511
There was a post here by Jack Zucker lamenting the loss of the blues in jazz guitar. While I don't really think that is the case, I think that there is a whole other school of playing derived from classical music. To me, Ben Monder is one who is completely apart from the old traditions and he is one of my favorite players.

Personally, I have no desire to play music in the jazz tradition. It's been done, is being done and will be done by thousands better than me at it. I think the field is open for some new ideas--some obviously don't feel that way.
 

vhollund

Member
Messages
3,519
Ben Monder
Thank you I'll check him out

I know there are tons of players exploring Jazz harmony differently today than what we are usually talking about in this forum.

The "modern" sounds mentioned has been around in Jazz, and been explored for +40 years
Yet we've never really gone deeply into the theory behind those sounds here

I get kind of bored quickly with the sound of tired bebop licks alone you see
when offen they tend to lack some "mystery"
 
Last edited:

StanG

Member
Messages
4,666
A while back, guitarjazz pointed out the Gary Campbell books as a way to get into this stuff. Walt Weiskopf has some good books on Intervallic ideas, also.
 

skronker

2010/2013/2015 S.C. Champions
Messages
5,400
Personally, I have no desire to play music in the jazz tradition. It's been done, is being done and will be done by thousands better than me at it. I think the field is open for some new ideas--some obviously don't feel that way.
I agree with your viewpoint.

Jazz is supposed to grow and evolve.
Just like it went from the songs being basically "pop" standards of the day, then evolved into be-bop, then into modal jazz.

I can't stand the mentality of the close minded "curators" of any genre.
Jazz and blues nazis are some of the most close minded people you can come across.
They don't know what they like, they like what they know.
 

vhollund

Member
Messages
3,519
Ok that's cool, but let's not derail completely from the topic. :)

I play a lot of other stuff than Jazz, and though it can be Hard changing between the different styles
POP and pop folk music , right now , a new , Jason Mraz type band....
it kindof help balance the use of tension. Sus2 chords are very occurant in POP and penta stuff and I find myself translating Vsubs into those forms To get a less complex sound.

F ex. a Mixolydian (#11) is like a major penta + a major 3rd interval between the b7 and the #11

The effective use of tension really comes down to balancing it with the konsonant type of sounds.
It's easy to sound like a bebopper when using bebop elements , a difficult not to.
But possible and many have done , and does it well.

I'm not saying all this to be a wise guy, but just sharing what thoughts and observations, i make, in my quest for a language that I can relate better to.

The b6 bebop lick should be temporarily forbidden to help musicians evolve :)
 
Last edited:

JonR

Member
Messages
14,850
The "modern" sounds mentioned has been around in Jazz, and been explored for +40 years
Yet we've never really gone deeply into the theory behind those sounds here
Right. That's the kind of debate I'd like to see. (I think you misconstrued my earlier post, which was not meant to be dismissive.)
My knowledge of post-modal jazz is limited, and I'd love to see some informed opinions (and interpretations) of music of that period.
 

Seraphine

Member
Messages
3,613
Consider yourself lucky.:)
I recently read Larry Coryell's autobiography, and he said that he only played "modal jazz" up to the mid-70s, but got into straight-ahead jazz after that.
Donald Fagen also said something like that about himself.
I guess you could substitute "fusion" for "modal jazz", but I was referring to how Coryell used the term.
I saw Larry back then before he changed direction... He was on the border of Prog for sure, yet faded away from the land as if chasing some beautiful woman that left him stranded on from his errands... lost in some wild wood and no hint of the woman.
 

Seraphine

Member
Messages
3,613
Right. That's the kind of debate I'd like to see. (I think you misconstrued my earlier post, which was not meant to be dismissive.)
My knowledge of post-modal jazz is limited, and I'd love to see some informed opinions (and interpretations) of music of that period.
What would post-modal jazz be? Fusion?

I found some "fusion" was leaning more the Jazz side, yet boring or hemogenized, in a sense, but the Prog ( jazz fusion ) was superb.. Weather Report or Mahavishnu Orchestra or Chick Corea ... Zappa, Gentle Giant and Beefheart etc

What Caravan was doing was amazing.. and as you know Pentangle as good and well. What I found The Grateful Dead and these other bands doing musically, was far more progressive then what I was finding in Jazz as a root. Mind, I love the Jazz heritage from the get-go and New Orleans.. Neville Brothers and Little Feat are definitely part of the blood. The 'second line' and the Afrikan heritage etc etc.... The ability and love of Jammin' and improvisation. What Cajun music added to the mix was and is amazing too.

I've had brilliant debates with Jazz Lovers ( who know EVERYTHING concerning Jazz ) and I've tried bird calls outside the box but they LOVE JAZZ bigtime lol... The Rod by which they measure! hmmmmm I've had these conversations with Classical trained profs and muso's... talk about entertainment and amusement... Yet another Rod to Measure with.
 

vhollund

Member
Messages
3,519
What would post-modal jazz be? Fusion?
Alot of new jazz styles have developed from the fusion with other genres

I'm not a historian, but I was alive to see it happen, I'll just hurry get all my references wrong in a mess, while trying to cut to the chase
There was of-course the whole fusion period in the 80's , that mixed rock and funk/disco with a million 11 chords
Alot of synths and chorussed guitars and the beginning of the digital era, Weather Report, Holdsworth, BUT in the same time and out of that was a whole generation in the late 80's up 90's that fused a mellow melange of pop harmony and jazz harmony

Miles Davis had fused pop music and hiphop with TuTu and Amandla and all, and whole generation of guitarist where inspired by Scofield and Frisell and Metheny (Joni Mitchell ! ) etc… i forgot to mention Steely Dan/ Donald Fagen, who also took the sus2 stuff and fused jazz with popular genres , and there were many others…

So just to start off with something concrete about fused pop voicings with jazz
Here's the handwritten partition of John Scofield for a gospel inspired song, from 1986 (!!)

All the voicings are written out , and I recommend reading them because there are 9's and 11s that are not mentioned in the chord symbols.

http://www.johnscofield.com/sheetmusic/highandmighty.pdf

Note lots of Add9s and 3'rds in the bass.

but it's not meant as an ultimate example , at all , just a lit bite to get with the whole Pop/jazz/fusion thing that evolved out of the 80's for a start, and I'll be back with more examples later, as we are closing in on the topic.
 

JonR

Member
Messages
14,850
What would post-modal jazz be? Fusion?
Mostly, yes. Basically I meant anything since the 1960s.
I found some "fusion" was leaning more the Jazz side, yet boring or hemogenized, in a sense, but the Prog ( jazz fusion ) was superb.. Weather Report or Mahavishnu Orchestra or Chick Corea ... Zappa, Gentle Giant and Beefheart etc
I'm reluctant to pigeon-hole too much (well, OK not that reluctant... :rolleyes:), but I don't think I'd put Beefheart in the same category as Weather Report, or Gentle Giant.

IMO, there's a clear distinction between (to simplify) jazz players who adopted rock idioms (the first 3 you mention), and rock players who sought to expand their horizons in all kinds of sophisticated ways from classical to jazz (the last 3 you mention).

Obviously they overlap in the middle, and I think I'd put Zappa in the middle somewhere (although his influences IMO were more a mix of vintage pop and avant-garde classical than jazz). Gentle Giant were definitely what I'd call "prog rock", intelligent rockers but with very little "jazz" attitude or background. (By jazz attitude/background, I mean focussed on improvisation more than composition, and with a prior history of playing jazz in some form.)
Beefheart was pretty unique. If I had to define him, he'd need his own category, something like "psychedelic blues" (although that makes me think of Hendrix, who was much more mainstream).
What Caravan was doing was amazing..
Prog rock, not jazz at all. IMO.
and as you know Pentangle as good and well.
Another unique category! "Folk-jazz" I call it. I really don't know of any other band quite like them: trad folk singer, 2 folk-blues acoustic guitarists, and a jazz rhythm section; playing a mix of traditional folk songs and original compositions.
Fairport Convention were maybe cousins, but not close ones; folk-rock, not folk-jazz.
What I found The Grateful Dead and these other bands doing musically, was far more progressive then what I was finding in Jazz as a root.
I see Grateful Dead as another unusual act, basically a rock band exploring long grooves and solos with a true jazz attitude (improvisation is the thing. The Doors might have followed that path if they hadn't been in the shadow of Jim Morrison's rockstar persona.
Mind, I love the Jazz heritage from the get-go and New Orleans.. Neville Brothers and Little Feat are definitely part of the blood.
Uh-huh. I hear that New Orleans heritage, kind of bypassing the bebop/modal revolutions; appreciating a real crucial, original strand of Americana aside from the "country" or "jazz" streams.
The 'second line' and the Afrikan heritage etc etc.... The ability and love of Jammin' and improvisation. What Cajun music added to the mix was and is amazing too.
Sure. Fascinating topic in its own right: "southern jazz" as opposed to "northern (or western) jazz" maybe?

(Lots to say about that, but it's risking derailing the thread... ;))
 

vhollund

Member
Messages
3,519
Yes, let's not dwell on the labels, but stay on track with concrete examples of the contents. ;)
But lets not drown in the 80's either :)
 

JonR

Member
Messages
14,850
So just to start off with something concrete about fused pop voicings with jazz
Here's the handwritten partition of John Scofield for a gospel inspired song, from 1986 (!!)

All the voicings are written out , and I recommend reading them because there are 9's and 11s that are not mentioned in the chord symbols.

http://www.johnscofield.com/sheetmusic/highandmighty.pdf

Note lots of Add9s and 3'rds in the bass.
Beautiful piece. I see lots of functional moves there, but I see what you mean about the extended chords. Many of those - in isolation - I might interpret as "modal" chords, but I'd be reluctant to do that in this piece.
I think it works through the voice-leading between the chords, and reminds me (in style and sound) very much of a few Wayne Shorter tunes, and also makes me think of Steve Swallow's "Falling Grace".

IOW, to call it either "functional" or "modal" is missing the point (IMO), as it's a marriage of the two. Modal chords with functional links, maybe.

What interests me about it is not the chords themselves (nice as they are) but the way they link, eg via the bass line.
but it's not meant as an ultimate example , at all , just a lit bite to get with the whole Pop/jazz/fusion thing that evolved out of the 80's for a start, and I'll be back with more examples later, as we are closing in on the topic.
Look forward to it (and to any more comments on the above tune).
 




Trending Topics

Top