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JBL grey frame vs orange frame

Discussion in 'Amps and Cabs' started by john archer, Oct 2, 2006.

  1. john archer

    john archer Member

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    Does anyone know the difference between these two versions? I heard they are both rated at 50 watts and both sound great. I also heard that the gray frames have paper cones and the orange have cloth. Does anyone have experience with both? Are there any sonic differences?

    Thanks,
    John
     
  2. killer blues

    killer blues Member

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    orange frames were OEM in Fender amps. The D130F is the MI speaker, the "F" standing for fender, while the D130 is for home audio and PA. They both came in gray frames. The difference is in the voice coils- F's had copper winding while the other had aluminum. Distortion will easily blow the D130 model, it is not suitable for guitar amps.
     
  3. Topcat

    Topcat Member

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    Wow. Very interesting Killer Blues. I never knew that.

    Better go check those JBL's I have stuffed into my Tweed Twin for the last 15 years. Does sound killer but a heavy mutha'.

    Terry
     
  4. CarlH

    CarlH Member

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    I think the D110F (the 10" versions) were always black. I had some of those too in the past. The 12" JBL D120F came in both gray and orange. The early years were grey and they later years were orange.
     
  5. CharlieS

    CharlieS Member

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    All of the original cone grey frames I've owned or seen have had paper surrounds, while the orange frames had cloth surrounds. The cloth surround sounds a bit edgier to me ears, but the paper surrounds dry out and tear pretty easily.
     
  6. john archer

    john archer Member

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    Thanks for the info guys.
     
  7. SuperReverb2

    SuperReverb2 Member

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    john archer:

    Here's the text of a Q&A I had with Harvey Gerst (of early JBL fame) about three years ago on this subject.

    >Harvey:
    >
    >There seems to be a lot of "lore" and "myth" regarding these two speakers,
    >and how they were actually made.
    >
    >It has always been my understanding that the JBL D130 (introduced in 1947 I
    >believe) was originally made for hi fi use, and was never really intended to
    >be used in a guitar amp. It had an all paper cone, with a paper surround,
    >and to my knowledge, the edge wasn't "doped." Is that first part correct?

    Yes.

    >Closer to 1959, I understand that Fender may have experimented with some of
    >these speakers in their early Vibrosonic amps, but they were just the "stock
    > JBL D130, and nothing more. Correct?

    Yes.


    >Also, around this time, is it true
    >that JBL started to apply "dope," (or goop as it was called then) to the
    >surround in an effort to reduce ringing, or was this "goop" applied to the
    >earlier speakers as well?

    No, the goop was applied to some models of hi-speakers (like the D123, and I
    believe, the 150-4C).

    >When Fender, Sunn, Kustom, and Ampeg became
    >interested in the JBL D130 speaker for guitar purposes, (early 60's??) I
    >believe the first ones used were STOCK JBL D130 speakers. Correct? Did these
    >speakers have a doped surround?

    Fender was using a few for special order Dual Showman cabinets, and these were
    standard D130s - no doped surround. We had lots of returns from Fender - burned
    voice coils and cracked surrounds.

    >Next, it is my understanding that some
    >problems started to arise with the surrounds drying out and cracking due to
    >these speakers being used outdoors and at VERY HIGH volumes. Correct?

    Correct again. At the time, I was head of QC and also head of the repair
    department. It was obvious these units were being overtightened by Fender
    leading to warped frames, and the surrounds were drying out from being played
    outside. As a guitar player, I had some ideas about how to solve the problems
    we were having.

    >In an
    >effort to stop this problem, and to make the ORIGINAL D130 speaker more
    >guitar amp friendly, you were the driving force behind the creation of the
    >JBL D130F. Correct?

    Correct. I sent a report to William Thomas (the President of JBL), outlining the
    problems, and suggested that I be allowed to develope a complete line of
    speakers for the music industry, along with estimates of expected income from
    that line.

    >When you redesigned the JBL D130, (an turned it into the
    >D130F) it is my understanding that you did two things. One, you widened the
    >gap in the voice coil (slightly) (with a resulting loss of efficiency being
    >less than 1 db), to alleviate the "hands of a blacksmith problem" some
    >guitar amp techs have, and two, (and this is the important part, did you, or
    >did you NOT, change the all paper surround to a cloth surround that was
    >doped?

    Yes, I widened the gap and doped the paper surround. The important thing to
    remember is that I wanted to use existing frames, voice coils, baskets, and
    speaker cones as much as possible to keep the startup costs low on the new
    untested M.I. line.

    >The reason I ask is that I have always been under the impression that the
    >JBL D130F speaker has/had a doped cloth surround. Recently I have entered
    >into a number of discussions with Fender amp owners that claim they have
    >ORIGINAL factory installed JBL D130F speakers in their amps that have the
    >paper surround, NOT THE CLOTH SURROUND, that is doped. Was there a
    >transition period where some speakers left the JBL factory with the "F"
    >designation, (and I'm assuming the wider voice coil gap) but still had the
    >original ALL PAPER cone with the doped edge? OR, was the cloth surround
    >added years later?

    If the D130F had a cloth surround, it had to have happened later, after I left.
    During the time I was there, it was always a paper cone and paper surround.

    >The timeline of all these occurrences is the most confusing, as I seem to
    >remember that you stated in one of your newsgroup threads that the JBL D130
    >speakers were already doped, (to reduce the ringing) but that you used the
    >dope (on the JBL D130F speakers) for a different reason. That reason being
    >to alleviate the drying out and cracking of the surround. I guess my
    >question would be: If the surround was already doped (to reduce the ringing
    >in hi fi use) why would you have to mention that you used the dope for a
    >different reason, (to stop the cracking) when the doping was there already
    >and it didn't really matter whether it was used to stop the ringing, or to
    >reduce the cracking, because as we all know, a doped edge is a doped edge.
    >UNLESS, you changed to the cloth surround at the same time, and that is why
    >you made reference to the doping because it is my understanding that a cloth
    >surround MUST be doped. (??)

    The stock D130 was never doped, nor did it ever have a cloth surround, at least
    not to my knowledge. The dope on the cloth surround was to prevent the surround
    from breathing. It simply sealed the holes in the cloth. I used the dope for a
    different reason, to prevent the surround from drying out and cracking.


    >As you can see, without your expert answers, it is all very confusing.
    >
    >If you can find the time to answer any or all of these questions, it would
    >be GREATY appreciated.
    >
    >Thanks in advance, for your time in these matters
    >
    >Chuck
     
  8. john archer

    john archer Member

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    Supereverb,

    Thanks for the info... I probably will try a few of each type to hear the difference myself. Just like anything else; some probably sound diffent even within the same production due to many factors.

    Take care,
    John
     
  9. Reeek

    Reeek Member

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    My 1969 Twin is original and my uncle bought it with the JBL upgrade along with the JBL badge on the lower corner of the amp grill cloth and those speakers are grey frames. They still work perfectly too ;)
     
  10. thesedaze

    thesedaze Member

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    which speakers are you talking about? D110? D120? D130?

    D130s are pretty low wattage. 20-30watts.

    Orange were F's/fender model.

    I've never heard of the aluminum/copper differences between the D130 and D130F...As far as I know, they both had aluminum voice coils w/ alumunum dust cap. The D130a (16ohm) and D130b (32ohm) hi fi speakers were copper voice coil, so perhaps that's where you might have heard of the difference. I know that the F's had a wider voice coil gap to get rid of voice coil rub that the regular D130s were getting. They also doped the cones on the F models. In turn the speaker was better suited for loud and distorted music.

    In the early/mid 50s, the source for AlNiCo changed at JBL once Lansing's original supply ran out after Jim died. That'll change the feel and sound.

    I've got one of the old style Jbl D130's...before they put the red and black posts on the lugs. Mine take standard soldering. I believe mine's from 1950.

    I heard a lot of the speaker problems occured from the way the Fender factory was mounting these speakers, not just pumping too much energy into these things. The factory weren't very careful, and would use up all the screws and tighten em too much, rather than the standar hifi method of using 4. The frames would get twisted and warped this way.
     
  11. john archer

    john archer Member

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    Sorry...I was thinking about the grey and orange frame d120f's.

    John
     
  12. jda

    jda Member

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    D120Fs - All the grey frames I've seen have paper surrounds, all the orange frames I've seen have cloth surrounds. The grey frames came first.

    There are some minor differences between them, but since we are talking about old speakers, I would say the the variance from one grey frame to the next, for example, would probably be about the same as the grey-to-orange difference.

    At least that's how I hear it.

    The factory cones sound different from the Widom recones, though, so you probably want original cones, or a recone with JBL parts.
     
  13. TubeSound55

    TubeSound55 Member

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    I know this is old news but have to add my .02...my dual showman reverb (cabinet year unknown) has no tail logo so 1975 or up has one orange 130f with cloth surround and coating...other is gray 130f with paper surround not coated...odd to see one of each and I'm sure it came that way from Fender...bottom line is it sounds wonderful loud or soft..also no insulation & no evidence it ever had any...I would not change a thing about it..
     
  14. zzmoore

    zzmoore Member

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    OK... So once again, what is/was the difference between the D120 and D130 speakers?
    Thank You
     
  15. thesedaze

    thesedaze Member

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    D120 = 12"
    D130 = 15"
     
  16. coolhand78

    coolhand78 Member

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    what is the wattage rating for the orange d130f?
     
  17. davebc

    davebc Member

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    Wow! As a long time JBL lover this thread is filled with some fantastic esoteric info.
     
  18. Steppin' Wolfe

    Steppin' Wolfe Member

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    Thread resurrection time. Great info in this thread. I found this thread while searching Google for info on JBL's.
    I have a D130F whcih is missing the red and black buttons on the speaker connection posts. Is there a way to repair these? IF so, where can I find the parts?
     
  19. jpgroup60

    jpgroup60 Member

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    According to the JBL catalog. D-120s are rated at 100 watts and the D-130s are rated at 25 watts, Don't know about materials used on the cones. I just recorded my last CD (jeffprinegroup.com) with a 72 100 watt marshall head and a 4x12 marshall cab with 4 D-120s , 2 orange and 2 gray, plus an Alembic Cab with 2 K-120s .So a total of 6 JBLs ,no effects . Both cabs were 8 ohm loads so the AMP was set to 4 ohms. The Tone from theses speakers is BEAUTIFUL when slightly pushed with a Twin or Marshall ( Mike Bloomfield,Peter Greene, The ABB Fillmore Album. They don't like pedals. I use them exclusively in my BF Deluxes , Twins .
     
  20. mrmax

    mrmax Member

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    I have 69 Twin like that also, but how many watts are D120F speakers really rated ? :confused::confused::confused:
     

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