Jensen C12N or C12K for Blues deluxe?

Discussion in 'Amps and Cabs' started by Riki, Jul 9, 2018.

  1. Riki

    Riki Member

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    looking at increasing clean headroom in my 40 watt Fender Blues deluxe.

    The K says 100 watts and about 99db sensitivity
    The N says 50 watts and 97db sensitivity.

    I find my amp is too bassy with my Gretsch filtertron pickups, the stock speaker gets all flubby when turned up.
    So which one is less bassy?
     
  2. Figaro

    Figaro Supporting Member

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    The C12N has less bass but it breaks up more.
     
  3. PCalugaru

    PCalugaru Member

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    The C12K the is the equivalent to a WGS G12C or Weber Chicago.. So its going to have some bottom end heft.. (although it not a flubbery speaker) Tight bottom end, typical American Jensen aggressive mids and a smooth top end.. Bigger frequency range than the C12N (100 watts... wattage wise.. this will have more head room than the C12N) 50oz magnent i.e. pretty efficient..

    C12N with its moderate break up, relaxed lows, again the typical American Jensen aggressive mids and differing from the C12K, a bright, sharp top end.. that's so typical of all Jensen type clones.. low in efficiency w/30 oz magnet. (IMO the truest sounding of all the after market Jensen C12N clones..)

    I found with all the SICA/Jensens that there is a considerable break in time due to the amount of dope applied to the surround. They more than get the job done when broken in...

    The C12K is a new design (obviously for situations where one needs a more powerful speaker)

    SICA/Jensens C12Ns the difference between them an original vintage Jensen is the inside measurement of the voice coil and its form length ( 1.472″ inside diameter, 1.125″ form length, .375″ windings width, 8 ohms) its a little thicker and its an overhung coil design .. I believe the originals were an underhung coil (Overhung is a more modern approach.. underhung is traditional .. and usually found in high end speakers)

    Why the added thickness of the coil..? I'm assuming for heat disapation to prevent adhesive breakdown/frying of the coil... (wasn't to save money...and they probably had the VC allready in production with another speaker(s)

    As a Jensen RI reconing kit displays ... the added thickness in the VC and the overhung design.. changes the cup spider and the dust cap (hence different than an original Jensen) it's a modern VC design.. its not the traditional

    What's all that mean? Nada Gosh Darn thing... if you like Jensen RIs ... then you like Jensen RIs.. (for the record I like Jensen RIs and if they are not built to vintage specs... I say so what). If anything Vintage Jensens had an issue with their coils frying becausing they are an underhung design and underpowered for what they were being used for (that's well documented..) SICA (the equivalent of Eminence in Europe) probably went with thier "tried and true" VC design with the Jensen RI's (they probably also thought..we are making the speaker, we are capturing the re-coning aftermarket buisness .. unlike vintage Jensens thier are many suppliers of of vintage re-cone kits.. pretty much Sica is the only place you can get their RI re-cone kit.
     
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2018
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  4. LaceSensor1

    LaceSensor1 Member

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    The c12k handles bass very very well, it is a great high headroom american voiced clean tone speaker. It does not flub out, unless your amp has under powered transformers. In that case the speaker won't stop the amp from farting out.
     
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  5. Riki

    Riki Member

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    Thanks guys .
    I’ve just ordered a Jensen c12N to try and also 12AY7 tubes for V1 and V2 positions to tame the gain
     
  6. Figaro

    Figaro Supporting Member

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    Just a reminder that the C12N reissue will sound a little bright until broken-in, which may take awhile. You can just turn the Treble control down a little until then. ;)
     
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  7. Riki

    Riki Member

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    Could I run some kind of noise through it and maybe put a duvet over it for an hour or something to help break it in so it’s not so brittle for a gig ?
     
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  8. Figaro

    Figaro Supporting Member

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    The more it’s used, the warmer it will sound.
     
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  9. Riki

    Riki Member

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    It’s still sounding bassy. I have bass all the way off.
    6l6 by JJ
    13ay7 by JJ in V1 and V2 ,12AX7 in V3.
    Using filtertron pickups
     
  10. BlueRiff

    BlueRiff Silver Supporting Member

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    Big fan of C12K - Fender made the right call putting that in their RI amps. Really Versatile.
     
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  11. Tony Done

    Tony Done Member

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    I had an early BD, and found it a bit warm and woolly. I recently installed a C8R in my Epi VJ, which had what I heard as the same tonal shortcomings as the BD, and got a big improvement in brightness and bass "tightness", so I would have the C12R on my possibles list.
     
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2018
  12. PCalugaru

    PCalugaru Member

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    Well, no wonder it's woolly!

    Two 12ay7s in v1 & v2???? Swap the 12ay7 in v2 for the 12ax7 in v3. That will brighten the amp up... and if that doesn’t work use two 12ax7s in v1 & v2. But keep the 12ay7 in v3.

    I prefer either at 12at7 or a 12ay7 in the channel splitting phase invertor V3. becuae they operate at a much higher voltage but with less gain.. they drive the signal better to the power tubes with less distortion than a 12ax7 .IMo .brings on the secondary harmonics better


    The way u have it now... due to 12ay7 being about 40% less in volume than 12ax7... u won’t get much stage volume either.
     
  13. Humble Texan Fan

    Humble Texan Fan Member

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    I'm sad to say it but that's really modern Jensens for you, in my book.

    Then those JJ short-plates don't really help your cause in this regard, not having so much on top for starters. And like PC said above: the lower gain could also hamper the drive somewhat, and in that lose some highend.
     
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  14. Riki

    Riki Member

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    I though the Jensen’s were supposed to be brighter than the eminence stock speaker?

    I though V1 was clean channel
    V2 the dirty
    V3 Reverb or inverter or something else entirely.
    So will whatever is in V1 and V2 affect the tone and drive of the normal clean channel?
     
  15. PCalugaru

    PCalugaru Member

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    s
    Jensen RI C12Ns brighter than what? An OEM Fender ala a Legend 1258? is that what your talking about.. or just in general?

    ON a Blues Deluxe. Yes.... Your signal goes to V1, Yes that's your clean channel... then on to V2 & yes that's your Drive/dirt.. from thier it splits, one side goes to a mosfett op amp (Solid state transistor.) then on to your reverb tank..comes out your reverb tank into another mosfett op amp. (both op amps are boosters and don't color the signal). From there, it catches up with the other side and goes into V3 phase invertor, which splits the signal again and sends two seperate signals to a power tube, then on to the speaker.

    The reverb is a SS design ..some snobs sweat that.. but I honestly think the reverb on modern Fenders are pretty good, the signal gets routed back into the phase invertor and gets tonaly colored by the V3 tube, then on to the power tubes.. IMO its actually a nice modern design.. I think they sound good.

    These modern Fender tone stacks i.e. V2 the dirt/Drive..... it doesn't really polish or refine the gain/overdrive.. bassically takes what is comming out of V1 and overdrives it in a raw wild sense.

    Take away the bells and whistles, the SS reverb and the Drive feature, the effects loop if it has one (can't remeber) and the schematic/tone stack is extremely close to a 1950's tweed amp design. So with the BD's Drive feature it's pretty wild/hairy on these amps.. very tweed'ish but can be easliy dialed to go way to far (hence the wild tag) IMO...Fender should not have put such a large pot on the Drive.. all these amps (BD's and HRDs) sound best with the drive in used below 6.. at 6 with a BD or a HRD....that's a lot on normal amps. (where not talking metal amps.. just normal amps)

    So IMO start with a smooth tube in V1, so when V2 amplifies it, it's not buzz saw'ish or wild...

    A 12at7 operates at about 40% less volume that a 12ax7.. and 12ay7 about 60% less volume than a 12ax7. Both the 12ay7 and the 12at7 operate at a stronger current even though a 12ax7 is louder.. think more "signal sustain" with both a 12at7 or a12ay7... and both are much more smother and mellower than a 12ax7. Both give nice secondary harmonics. Putting a 12ay7 or a 12at7 in v1 will also help on your volume controll. However!!!! You will need a 12ax7 in the v2 volume to get a decent volume out of the amp..(for live puproposes) & it will also brighten and tighten the signal..

    You doubled down on the dark chocolate when you use two 12ay7s in V1 & v2. (too rich and creamy) the tube at v3 is more for driving the signal to the power tube, yet it still does color your tone some using a 12at7 or a 12ay7 is good foe signal sustaining into the power tubes.

    Try the above and tell me what ya think.

    A Jensen RI C12N is a great choice for that amp (once you get it dialed in with the correct tubes ) the thing about american voiced speakers is they don't do metal all that well.. But they do cleans and smooth/mild overdrive really well. Perfect for that BD since it isn't a metal amp.. You find the C12n a little harsh on the top end.. push the mids and dial back the treb and base a little on the amps EQ..it pulls the top end bite right out of a Jensen Ri C12N... The speaker will relax with age giving you a nice vintage tone...
     
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  16. Riki

    Riki Member

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    wow Thanks for that. Very helpful indeed
     
  17. Riki

    Riki Member

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    I though the Jensen C12N would be a lot less bassy than the stock eminence speaker that comes in the blues deluxe reissues.
    I’d just like to have it on say 3-4 and turn it down if it’s too bassy at a gig. Where I am now I can’t make it any less bassy unless I buy an eq pedal to run in front before the amp like a boss ge-7
     
  18. PCalugaru

    PCalugaru Member

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    With all amps the more gain/overdrive you push, the more treble and base comes through..

    My Goodsell BD50 (a plexi clone) I get that cranking.. I have to dial back the base to 2 and the treb to 2.5.

    If it’s still whooly after you corrected the tube at v2 then I’d go 12ax7 in v1 too.

    A Sica/Jensen Ri C12N is not a bassy speaker. Detractors make the claim it has a harsh top end.. i guess some are too lazy to reach over push the mids and roll back the treble on their amps eq.

    And no.... an Eminence legend 1258 (a great speaker in its own right) is indeed brighter than a Sica/Jensen C12N

    Best of luck
     
  19. Humble Texan Fan

    Humble Texan Fan Member

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    You'd have to realise that the DR is rather big bottomed for starters, perhaps also a bit loose in the lows. To balance this and stay with something american I would go with a seamed cone speaker, like a Jupiter or the A and T cone Webers.

    The Emi GB12 is very slim and tight in the lows with remarkably lot of sparkle in the thighs whilst being smooth in this range. Does a rather laid back yet mid heavy Tele-twang thing marvelously, I think.
    Well if the EQ could universally save the day we would only need the one speaker, wouldn't we? There are different kinds of low end and highend, you know. Strangely the RIs tend to sound garbled without being very woofy and potentially harsh without being particularly bright, in my experience. It's supposed to be bright, really, so that you wouldn't want to turn down the treble other than for taste.
     
  20. Figaro

    Figaro Supporting Member

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    Another great speaker for a DR (or any Fender) is the Jensen Tornado Neo. It handles the bass of Fender amps with no flub and never any harsh high end. It has more clarity than most speakers along with a smooth warm, balanced sound. And... it only weighs 4.4 lbs!
     

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