Jimmy Herring 'outside' playing

[papablue]

I just picked up the old Frogwings disc, and am loving it.
I've been a huge Jimmy Herring fan for quite some time, and am doing my damndest to get some more of his style incorporated into mine.

Anywho, any tips or ideas, strategies as to how he does those crazy outside licks in his runs? Most of the time is sounds like he's playing in a pentatonic form and then blazes out the insane runs that are nowhere to be found on my guitar.

Help?

Graci

 

[Pedro58]

There was a Guitar Player Magazine within the last year or so that had an article on his style. It was pretty extensive and had a lot of input from Herring himself. Find that, and you might get a few clues? From what I remember, he likes to move pentatonic patterns around to fit the key/mode he wants and just "rethinks" the target tones. That way he can blaze through a familiar pattern and get outside the traditional licks.

 

[jzucker]

I'm not familiar with that recording but the easiest way to play out using pentatonics is to use 1/2 step up or down as approach tones. Try sequencing lines from your pentatonic and every sequence step move the line up or down a half step around the original pentatonic. You can also integrate a pentatonic scale up a minor or major 3rd away. What you want to do is superimpose a new chord progression on top of the original one, creating an alternative harmonic rhythm.

 

[lhallam]

Larry Carlton says something very similar to what Jack mentioned in his instruction VHS tape.

Danny Gatton said that he simply played the same scales "in the wrong key".

 

[jzucker]

When you play rhythm guitar do you just strum the same chord over and over or do you sometimes slide into it from above or below ala stormy monday, james brown grooves, etc? What you want to do when playing outside is to create that same feeling of integration, dissonance, resolution.

 

[papablue]

I saw the guitar player lesson, very informative and what I have been doing to play more out, is move my pentatonic and chord shapes up & down a step or 3, to get that different feeling, and the tension.

I guess finding my new target notes are the next step, and of course his sick ass speed.

Thanks folks

 

[mlynn02]

the half step approach tone idea sounds pretty much on the money to me, that's a good tip...

i've also read articles by jimmy herring where he discribed a couple of simple tricks that you can do to get outside. one is he plays a lick (maybe an easy 4 eighth-note pentatonic lick) that is in key with the music, then he repeats that same lick one half step up, then returns back to the original key. so if you do this rapidly back and forth you get a nice tension and relese effect. also he recommends trying a similar thing whereby you play a lick in key, then move the lick up three frets, then another three frets, then another three frets and then another three frets to get you back in key, one octave up. this is a trick he claims he stole from coltrane's playing. also, he indicated that you should learn to modulate up and down three frets at a time, and then back into key one octave up, without changing positions on the neck. easier said then done, jimmy!

 

[jzucker]

Originally posted by papablue
I saw the guitar player lesson, very informative and what I have been doing to play more out, is move my pentatonic and chord shapes up & down a step or 3, to get that different feeling, and the tension.

I guess finding my new target notes are the next step, and of course his sick ass speed.

Thanks folks

[shameless plug]
You need the 2 position speed pentatonics from my book!
[/shameless plug]

 

[jzucker]

Originally posted by mlynn02
the half step approach tone idea sounds pretty much on the money to me, that's a good tip...

i've also read articles by jimmy herring where he discribed a couple of simple tricks that you can do to get outside. one is he plays a lick (maybe an easy 4 eighth-note pentatonic lick) that is in key with the music, then he repeats that same lick one half step up, then returns back to the original key. so if you do this rapidly back and forth you get a nice tension and relese effect. also he recommends trying a similar thing whereby you play a lick in key, then move the lick up three frets, then another three frets, then another three frets and then another three frets to get you back in key, one octave up. this is a trick he claims he stole from coltrane's playing. also, he indicated that you should learn to modulate up and down three frets at a time, and then back into key one octave up, without changing positions on the neck. easier said then done, jimmy!

That's basically what I was saying about sequencing!

 

[lhallam]

Originally posted by jzucker
[shameless plug]
You need the 2 position speed pentatonics from my book!
[/shameless plug]

Shameless agreement.

 

[mlynn02]

Originally posted by jzucker
That's basically what I was saying about sequencing!

oh yeah, exactly, you're right. i'm a slow typist, couldn't get my post up there until after you'd submitted yours...

sequencing is a good word for it. i've dabbled with this trick and it's cool, but, i definately appreciate it most when its fairly sporadic. another guy who uses this trick a lot now is derek trucks.

he's got a long history of playing with jimmy herring, and i bet he absorbed this idea from jimmy. i don't recall hearing trucks using sequencing much on the frogwings album, but i've heard him use it more and more in the past year or so with his own band.

 

[gimmejava]

Originally posted by jzucker
I'm not familiar with that recording but the easiest way to play out using pentatonics is to use 1/2 step up or down as approach tones. Try sequencing lines from your pentatonic and every sequence step move the line up or down a half step around the original pentatonic. You can also integrate a pentatonic scale up a minor or major 3rd away. What you want to do is superimpose a new chord progression on top of the original one, creating an alternative harmonic rhythm.

I'm assuming (hoping) that this is covered in your book, JZ. I ordered it a couple of days ago and can't wait to dive into it.

Randy

 

[jzucker]

Originally posted by gimmejava
I'm assuming (hoping) that this is covered in your book, JZ. I ordered it a couple of days ago and can't wait to dive into it.

Randy

I have an 8-10 page introduction to Dodecaphonics in my book which covers these types of topics. Let me know if it answers your questions!

 

[Stephen Davis]

The sequencing up 3 seems to just be following a diminished idea. A fully diminished chord can be seen as a dom7b9 without a root, so think about it that way.

Also, Herring stole a LOT from Morse.

Rabbit

 

[fuzzbox]

who is this guy?

 

[HHB]

he's only the best going on right now! Herring can play the Dregs catalog note for note, so he can sound a little Morse like, but he's got his own thing going, the nicest guy you'll ever meet too

 

[Tag]

Originally posted by jzucker
When you play rhythm guitar do you just strum the same chord over and over or do you sometimes slide into it from above or below ala stormy monday, james brown grooves, etc?

Great way of putting it Jack. Most guys will slide up and down with chords, and even hold them for a long time (up or down a half step), but dont realize its exactly the same thing with single notes! I did the same thing years ago, until my x teacher showed me just what you explained above. Instant revelation!

 

[aeolian]

Originally posted by fuzzbox
who is this guy?

Get Jazz is Dead, Great Sky River (live) and put on Estimated Prophet. If all your guitars are still intact after that, you're a stronger man than I gunga-din

 

[HHB]

Jimmy has that sense of wild that really comes through, h'ell arrange his tuners so they all point the same way and play a solo, that's a Col Bruce move, I'm not man enough to try it yet (at least in public).

 

[HHB]

sage advise indeed , you asked for it, and now the poor audience is in for it LOL