"Jose" mods are diode clipping?

guitarman3001

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10,436
Behringer are an IP ripoff company. They rip off things CLOSELY.

There is a BIG difference between using an old public schematic and building small scale clones to what Behringer do.

A Yeti isn’t an amp from anyone. It’s an original based on a JCM via Mark Cameron.

What’s it stolen from?

Definitely not Jim Marshall who himself stole the Bassman.
Let me fix that for you -- The guitar, guitar amp, and guitar pedal industries are IP ripoff industries. They rip off things CLOSELY.

The Yeti isn't a Marshall based amp with a Jose mod? Sorry, the only thing Bugera did wrong per TGP rules, is to make affordable amps that were designed to sound like more expensive ones. When all the Dumble cloners make $4K clones, when Metro, Friedman, and a bunch of others make expensive clones, when other companies make expensive Vox and Fender clones, they get all kinds of praise here, but when Bugera suddenly comes out with amps that sound as good as the amp someone on TGP just paid $3K for, naturally, the guy who just paid that much for a tone someone else is getting for $500 is going to be a little annoyed and will look for a reason to criticize that $500 amp. Hence the Bugera hate that went on here, and to a degree still goes on.
 

G34RSLU7

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1,954
I always thought Blackstar was a chinese-built house brand for Guitar Center. Is that not the case? I've not looked at them in years, but the stuff I saw years ago gave me the impression that it was designed and built for the $499 Epi LP crowd.
they are a bunch of ex-marshall employees and the company is based in britain, i don't know where you got the idea they are a guitar center brand.

they aren't built in the UK (at least most of their line isn't) but that doesn't make them bad amps
 

teemuk

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3,053
That's a trait of all "high gain" distortion circuits (whether amps or effects) with plenty of gain on tap and distinct mid-range emphasis prior to distortion. There are certain voicing principles that most units in this category follow. If you dime the gain they will all sound pretty blurry and compress all dynamics. That's the point, though. You can tweak good sounds out of them but they don't suit every genre of music.

Metal Zone is also actually pretty good sounding unit, especially as a "preamp" plugged straight to power amp. Very fitting for certain genres of music. If YOU don't like it, then it's your preference and I don't wonder that you don't like certain Blackstar amps either because overall similarity isn't a surprise. Then it's just not the amp for you. I wouldn't choose a tweed Fender for grindcore but that's an issue of application, not an indication the amp itself is bad.
 

guitarman3001

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Messages
10,436
My gripe with Blackstar at the time was the way the company misled people. They claimed the designs were all-tube when in fact even distortion circuit was solid-state assisted. When confronted about this they changed their opinion. Another claim was that the power amps had automatic biasing circuit and there was no need to adjust bias when retubing. Turns out the power amps were standard fixed bias. I don't like such policy of misleading customers or potential customers.

Otherwise, I do like their products and they have very good tone for some particular genres. That they employ solid-state circuitry is no issue to me. But they could have been honest about it from the start.
But what you're describing is something that happens industry-wide. Again, Dumble, Rivera, Marshall, Friedman, H&K, Peavey, etc..etc... all make amps they sell as all-tube amps but use non-tube technology to generate more gain. Yet you don't see the same torch and pitchfork hate against them that you see against Blackstar.

I don't think any of them are misleading anyone. The preamps are tube preamps, the power sections are tube power sections. Hence, they are tube amps.

I hadn't heard about the biasing thing. I currently have two Blackstars and have never thought they were self-biasing.
 

oneblackened

Member
Messages
1,096
I shall never forget when my Rivera Pubster was on the blink and my amp tech indicated a failed IC Op-Amp in the pre-amp section of my all-tube amp! I was inconsolable!! It took me a long time to get over that feeling of betrayal. Lot's of counseling to get to where I am today but what doesn't kill us, makes us stronger.
Spare me the sarcasm and stupidity, please. False advertising is false advertising no matter who does it.


But what you're describing is something that happens industry-wide. Again, Dumble, Rivera, Marshall, Friedman, H&K, Peavey, etc..etc... all make amps they sell as all-tube amps but use non-tube technology to generate more gain. Yet you don't see the same torch and pitchfork hate against them that you see against Blackstar.
Marshall got plenty of flak for the JCM900 Dual Reverbs, which in most aspects are quite similar to the Blackstar HT line (IC op-amps do the heavy lifting in terms of amplification, with clipping diodes providing the lion's share of the distortion and the tubes are just kinda... there). If you like how they sound, cool, but don't call them all-tube when they're not. They're hybrids. Same with the H&K stuff.

And further, clipping circuits in an otherwise tube preamp are not the same as a solid state preamp with a tube tacked in.
I don't think any of them are misleading anyone. The preamps are tube preamps, the power sections are tube power sections. Hence, they are tube amps.
A Blackstar HT Club 40 has 2 preamp tubes. The vast, vast majority of the amplification and the tone shaping are done with solid state. I don't particularly care about that - but it's just kind of suspect when your "all tube" amp uses TL072s for nearly everything.

With Blackstar, they do build amps that I like. The Series One stuff sounds pretty decent overall as does the Artisan line. The HT series for what it is isn't awful, either. It's really just the marketing.
 
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mlj_gear

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2,907
But what you're describing is something that happens industry-wide. Again, Dumble, Rivera, Marshall, Friedman, H&K, Peavey, etc..etc... all make amps they sell as all-tube amps but use non-tube technology to generate more gain. Yet you don't see the same torch and pitchfork hate against them that you see against Blackstar.

I don't think any of them are misleading anyone. The preamps are tube preamps, the power sections are tube power sections. Hence, they are tube amps.

I hadn't heard about the biasing thing. I currently have two Blackstars and have never thought they were self-biasing.
Can't post on the old thread about this since it's been closed, but all amps that have some solid state components in the signal path are not equal, and not all companies advertise these things in the same way.

For example, most Marshall fans would know that Jubilees use diode clipping, and are hence not typically described as "all-tube." I have no idea if Masrhall ever advertised Jubilees that way. The fact that there a diodes in the signal path in a Jubilee, though -- at least on one channel -- does not mean that it's equivalent to Blackstar claiming an amp is "all-tube" when its circuit does an awful lot of work with solid state components. Way more than a Jubilee, by the way. I mean, really, here are the schematics of the two amps up to where the signal first hits a tube (at V1A):

2555 before first tube.jpg


HT Club 40 before first tube.jpg

Do you really not see any difference?

On a Jubilee, if you're using the clean channel and "Rythym clip" is not engaged, there are no diodes in the signal path. On the HT Club 40, there are several solid state components in the signal path all the time.

I'm not talking about tone here, just circuitry and how amps are (or at least were) advertised.

FWIW, here are links to the full schematics:


[/URL]
 

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guitarman3001

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10,436
Spare me the sarcasm and stupidity, please. False advertising is false advertising no matter who does it.


Marshall got plenty of flak for the JCM900 Dual Reverbs, which in most aspects are quite similar to the Blackstar HT line (IC op-amps do the heavy lifting in terms of amplification, with clipping diodes providing the lion's share of the distortion and the tubes are just kinda... there). If you like how they sound, cool, but don't call them all-tube when they're not. They're hybrids. Same with the H&K stuff.

And further, clipping circuits in an otherwise tube preamp are not the same as a solid state preamp with a tube tacked in.
A Blackstar HT Club 40 has 2 preamp tubes. The vast, vast majority of the amplification and the tone shaping are done with solid state. I don't particularly care about that - but it's just kind of suspect when your "all tube" amp uses TL072s for nearly everything.

With Blackstar, they do build amps that I like. The Series One stuff sounds pretty decent overall as does the Artisan line. The HT series for what it is isn't awful, either. It's really just the marketing.
It's not false advertising. You're just being pedantic. You claimed the vast majority of amplification in the Blackstars is solid state. What are the two EL34s doing in my HT MKII?

The irony is still that Blackstar gets all kinds of hate for doing what most other amp companies do, but those companies actually get praise! Go figure....

BTW, I've made this offer before - to anyone who thinks their "all-tube" amps are really all-tube and don't rely on any non-tube circuitry to produce sound, send me your amp. I will remove/clip/break just one non-tube component of my choosing and then see if your all-tube amp still makes sound.
 

guitarman3001

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10,436
Do you really not see any difference?
No, there is no difference in the fact that they still use non-tube components to generate more distortion. Hence, according to you guys, it's not a tube amp, it's a hybrid or whatever you want to call it. The fact that the implementation isn't identical to how Blackstar does it doesn't change the fact that it's still a non tube component being used to increase the gain. Your argument is basically "well, they do it differently than Blackstar, and I'm the one who determines that theirs is acceptable and Blackstar's isn't". You base that on some arbitrary criteria. Sorry, it doesn't work that way.

JCM900, Jubilee, Jose mod, Dumble, H&K, Rivera, Friedman, Peavey, Ceriatone, etc..etc...etc... all of their amps that use SS components to increase gain are hybrids and all of those companies are guilty of false advertising. That is the argument you guys are making. Yet you only criticize Blackstar for it. Why is that?

It's hilarious, whenever there is a Blackstar thread, you guys come out with your pitchforks but whenever there are threads about Friedman BEs, Jubilees, etc... you guys are surprisingly silent about the fact that those amps are hybrids and are being falsely advertised as being tube amps.

Like I said, the hypocrisy on this forum is really mindboggling sometimes.
 

BlueRiff

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Messages
6,056
Spare me the sarcasm and stupidity, please. False advertising is false advertising no matter who does it.
Relax - a little levity in tense times. :) Actually I'm not sure if claimed it was an all-tube amp. I agree manufacturers should be honest and, if claiming all tube, then ensure its all tube. That said, that Pubster 45 had some killer tone and I'm not sure if that IC was for overdrive or applied to clean tone.
 

T Wilcox

Member
Messages
156
Jose did a few different style mods.
I have seen the inside of one that does not use diode clipping at all
This particular amp had the plate resistor connected to a pot to make the plate voltage variable. 175v on that pot. Fun stuff
This amp did not have the push pull master which is very common Jose's work.
Iow, when someone brought their amp to Jose they explained what sound they were going for and then he did what he thought would get there.
Also most the mods he was doing were for live players.
He added line outs for some to run wet/dry setups
He added multiple speaker jacks to connect more cabs
Like Dumble amps, not all Jose mods are created equal and the mods evolved over time
 

mlj_gear

Member
Messages
2,907
No, there is no difference in the fact that they still use non-tube components to generate more distortion. Hence, according to you guys, it's not a tube amp, it's a hybrid or whatever you want to call it. The fact that the implementation isn't identical to how Blackstar does it doesn't change the fact that it's still a non tube component being used to increase the gain. Your argument is basically "well, they do it differently than Blackstar, and I'm the one who determines that theirs is acceptable and Blackstar's isn't". You base that on some arbitrary criteria. Sorry, it doesn't work that way.

JCM900, Jubilee, Jose mod, Dumble, H&K, Rivera, Friedman, Peavey, Ceriatone, etc..etc...etc... all of their amps that use SS components to increase gain are hybrids and all of those companies are guilty of false advertising. That is the argument you guys are making. Yet you only criticize Blackstar for it. Why is that?

It's hilarious, whenever there is a Blackstar thread, you guys come out with your pitchforks but whenever there are threads about Friedman BEs, Jubilees, etc... you guys are surprisingly silent about the fact that those amps are hybrids and are being falsely advertised as being tube amps.

Like I said, the hypocrisy on this forum is really mindboggling sometimes.
Dude, a guy pointed out the differences on another thread, and a big part of your response was to ask him to explain how it could be that your Blackstar's power tubes were not amplifying anything. He (obviously) never suggested that the Blackstar didn't have a tube output section. Anyway...

Even here, you fail to distinguish between marketing something as a tube amp and specifically marketing it as "all-tube" or "all-valve." You pick and chose whichever term is most convenient for you in a given post.

As for "hypocrisy," by all means, please spell out what about my post was hypocritical... I'm sure we'd all get a kick out of it.
 

ce24fan

Member
Messages
907
Can't post on the old thread about this since it's been closed, but all amps that have some solid state components in the signal path are not equal, and not all companies advertise these things in the same way.

For example, most Marshall fans would know that Jubilees use diode clipping, and are hence not typically described as "all-tube." I have no idea if Masrhall ever advertised Jubilees that way. The fact that there a diodes in the signal path in a Jubilee, though -- at least on one channel -- does not mean that it's equivalent to Blackstar claiming an amp is "all-tube" when its circuit does an awful lot of work with solid state components. Way more than a Jubilee, by the way. I mean, really, here are the schematics of the two amps up to where the signal first hits a tube (at V1A):

View attachment 274461


View attachment 274463

Do you really not see any difference?

On a Jubilee, if you're using the clean channel and "Rythym clip" is not engaged, there are no diodes in the signal path. On the HT Club 40, there are several solid state components in the signal path all the time.

I'm not talking about tone here, just circuitry and how amps are (or at least were) advertised.

FWIW, here are links to the full schematics:


[/URL]

I own a Marshall 2205 which also uses diode clipping. Is that design the same as the Jubilee with respect to the diodes not being engaged with the clean channel?
 

guitarman3001

Member
Messages
10,436
Dude, a guy pointed out the differences on another thread, and a big part of your response was to ask him to explain how it could be that your Blackstar's power tubes were not amplifying anything. He (obviously) never suggested that the Blackstar didn't have a tube output section. Anyway...

Even here, you fail to distinguish between marketing something as a tube amp and specifically marketing it as "all-tube" or "all-valve." You pick and chose whichever term is most convenient for you in a given post.

As for "hypocrisy," by all means, please spell out what about my post was hypocritical... I'm sure we'd all get a kick out of it.
IMO, the differences are pedantic. Just because there are different ways to implement solid state components in a tube amp doesn't magically turn one way of doing it into a hybrid but the other way does not.

The hypocrisy is that I can't recall you ever accusing other companies like Marshall, Friedman, etc... of false advertising when they market their amps that use SS components to increase gain as being "tube" or "all tube" amps.

And this doesn't just apply to you, it applies to the forum in general. Whenever someone makes a Blackstar thread, you can bet money that someone else will come in and start talking about "well...if you don't mind it being a hybrid and not a real tube amp..blahblahblah..." but you never see the same thing on a thread about a Jubilee or a Friedman BE or whichever Dumble or Dumble clone also uses diodes or some other SS components to increase the gain.

And I don't pick and choose, I simply don't have the anti-Blackstar or anti-Bugera bias that permeates this site. I personally don't care about whether an amp is "all-tube", solid state, hybrid (a real hybrid, not what some people here deem to be a hybrid), or a tin can on a string. If it sounds good and does what I want it to, I use it. The amp I'm currently playing the most is a BluGuitar Amp1 which has all kinds of SS circuitry in it.

I just find the anti-Blackstar thing to be annoying given the hypocrisy I mentioned above.
 
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DeadLazy

Member
Messages
1,162
My main amps aren’t my Plexi style amps but the Ceriatone Chupacabra ended my search for high gain. I don’t care what’s in it, I love that thing.

Blackstar always felt cheap to me. Something feels off. They sound fine when I try them at stores but I’ve never been tempted to bring one home.

I had a Bugera once. I was looking at the power tubes when they went super nova and it looked epic as it died. While that was cool and all, I was never tempted to get another one.

Bugera amps sound alright but are really lifeless when I dig deeper. It’s a really sterile sound and response. I just think they’re cheap crap.
 

teemuk

Member
Messages
3,053
its circuit does an awful lot of work with solid state components. Way more than a Jubilee, by the way.
Yes. But they still primarily use tubes for clipping distortion and solid state gain stages for overall clean amplification, whereas Jubilee uses tube gain stages for clean amplification and solid-state diodes for clipping. You have to evaluate what is important regarding circuit operation instead of staring the schematics blindly.
 




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