Just ordered a Palmer Cab sim to use with a Two Rock...

[elambo]

...CR Sig. Am I nuts? Maybe. I love the sound of the Two Rock cabinet, but setting up and using a mic isn't always practical. I'm also a little tired of having to keep the volume so low.

I'm getting a Palmer PGA-04 (I tried to get an 03, but lost an eBay bidding war which skyrocketed to $1500). This way, I can stand in the control room, with the amp going direct into the recorder, and play without having to be so far away from the action, which is typically NOT in the live room.

Anyone have experience with the PGA-04 and a Two Rock, or any other high-end amp?

 

[DestroyAllGuitars]

I've had much experience with the PGA-04 with lots of high end
amps. It is IMO the best cab simulator available and with some
EQ tweaking it can get a decent sound, but I've always felt
that there was something lacking. Nothing can truly simulate
the interaction of an amp pushing speakers which are pushing
a mic.

With that being said, I would advise building an iso cab with
a floating mic holder inside. Now you can have the best of both
worlds. You and your amp in the control room with a real speaker
and mic setup.

 

[aleclee]

Originally posted by CliffC
Nothing can truly simulate the interaction of an amp pushing speakers which are pushing a mic.

And even if it could, it wouldn't simulate the interaction of the cab with the head, rattling the innards of the tubes. I love the effect of cab vibration and tube microphonics (short of feedback of course).

 

[riverastoasters]

Originally posted by CliffC
With that being said, I would advise building an iso cab with a floating mic holder inside. Now you can have the best of both worlds. You and your amp in the control room with a real speaker and mic setup.

This is OK, and I have a couple versions of that. But iso cabs are normally small enough that you can't really get rid of all the midrange emphasis from resonance. If you make a really big one, that is less objectionable.

But if you are in the studio, and they have a tracking room that is available, then head in the control room and run a cable to the cab in the tracking room is the best in my experience.

 

[DestroyAllGuitars]

riverastoasters,

I totally agree with you about having the head in the control
room and cab in the tracking room. That is how I work, but
elambo is saying that he must keep the volume low. That is
what lead me to the iso cab routine.

 

[elambo]

I can always mic the cabinet, but it's just not practical to keep running back and forth from the control room to the live room. I'm almost always the one writing and/or producing the track so I'd much prefer to be a part of the action in the control room, not the live room. I'd miss the interaction between the co-producers and engineers as the session progressed.

Running a cable from the amp to the cabinet is one option, but it will take some drilling into the wall, away from the mic panel. If I try to go via the mic panel the signals (mic and amp) will bleed. Also, a powered run of audio from an amp at any great length isn't ideal.

I already use a Palmer PDI-09 (with a Randall MTS) and I've been really happy with it, but it lacks the tone shaping of the 04, which is what I'm most curious about. I believe that the actual amp sim hardware of the 04 is the same as the 09, but I could be wrong. Unfortunately, the 09 is just a DI and can't handle a load or else I'd try it with this amp.

 

[DestroyAllGuitars]

The 09 with a Hotplate is just as good as the 04 IMO. I always
preferred tweaking the sound of the 04 with external EQ
rather than it's onboard EQ. The Hotplate will also give you an
additional line out which can be very handy. I sold my 04 and
kept the 09.

 

[elambo]

I have a Hotplate also, but I'm not too crazy about it. Since I already have that, and the 09, I can give them a whirl and see what happens.

 

[riverastoasters]

Originally posted by elambo
Running a cable from the amp to the cabinet is one option, but it will take some drilling into the wall, away from the mic panel. If I try to go via the mic panel the signals (mic and amp) will bleed. Also, a powered run of audio from an amp at any great length isn't ideal.

Since you will have the Palmer, then you have a line out, right? Then run the line out through the pass through, so you won't have bleed, and re-amp that signal in the tracking room.

I run speaker cables 25 feet all the time. Not a lot of loss that I can tell into an 8 Ohm 212. If you use a 16 Ohm 412 then I think there is even less loss because the line is like a resistor - the power loss to the cable is I^2 R where I is the current, so since for a given piece of wire R is fixed, then reducing the current reduces the loss. In order to cut the loss over long runs, then use big wire (14 or 12 gauge) which has small R per foot.

 

[riverastoasters]

Originally posted by CliffC
riverastoasters,

I totally agree with you about having the head in the control
room and cab in the tracking room. That is how I work, but
elambo is saying that he must keep the volume low. That is
what lead me to the iso cab routine.

Ah low volume. Yeah I have that issue here at home, which is why I have the various iso setups. Which I am not altogether happy with.

I use a Hotplate in front of the iso cabs because the harder you hit the iso cab, the more cab resonance you contend with. But you still want to push the speaker around in there so it's not like bedroom volume, more like 4dB or 8dB. Then I also take a line (Hotplate has one) direct to the board. We can blend in a little direct sound, which with some EQ, actually helps a lot with the boxy aspect that iso cabs can produce.

I also have an iso booth which is about 5'x7'x7' and even that sounds a little confined. It's better than the iso cabs, but it's still not perfect.

So I'm going to build a studio out back.

 

[DestroyAllGuitars]

I have a Hotplate also, but I'm not too crazy about it. Since I already have that, and the 09, I can give them a whirl and see what happens.

You can use the Hotplate just as a speaker load and the 09 will
be feeding the sound to your recorder. You can aslo use the line out of the Hotplate to feed a signal to another channel in your recorder and than you can blend the two tracks.

 

[elambo]

I don't like the sound I get from a Hotplate. That's what I'm trying to avoid.

 

[loverocker]

There is a difference in the tone of the 03 and 04. Which is why one goes for reasonable money and one goes for mad money. IMHO, the only downside of the 04 is that on medium to high gain tones, it leaves some fizz in the DI Output tone. Which the 03 doesn't.

For other tones, the 04 is more versatile than the 03. It preserves the sparkle in BF Fenders better, for example. Another small thing: the 04 gives a visual indicator (LEDs) that an amp signal is present - a bonus given the consequences of accidentally SNAFUing the connections.

 

[dczay]

Originally posted by CliffC
The 09 with a Hotplate is just as good as the 04 IMO. I always
preferred tweaking the sound of the 04 with external EQ
rather than it's onboard EQ. The Hotplate will also give you an
additional line out which can be very handy. I sold my 04 and
kept the 09.

Cliff, Which EQ's have you found worked well when you had the 04?

 

[DestroyAllGuitars]

I had been feeding the output of the 04 into a Millennia STT1
channell strip, using it's the EQ and sometimes the compressor.
From there the signal would feed into a Mytek A/D, then into a
Lynx AES 16 souncard into a PC running Nuendo.

The other chain I would use would be 04 into a Manley Vari MU
and then into a Manley Massive Pasive, to Mytek etc....

My rule of thumb, is Millennia for more transparent EQ & comp,
and Manley where more coloration and help is needed.

One could easily make do with just the Millennia or just the
Manley or any other quality EQ/Comp or channel strip.

 

[Ed DeGenaro]

Originally posted by elambo
I don't like the sound I get from a Hotplate. That's what I'm trying to avoid.

And what he's trying to tell you is that is you use it as a load it won't matter.

 

[elambo]

Originally posted by Ed DeGenaro
And what he's trying to tell you is that is you use it as a load it won't matter.

I've only ever used the Hotplate with the speaker out and while attenuating, which is what I don't like. It alters the sound too much.

But you seem to be saying that the sound from the direct-out is unchanged? That could be, but I've never tried it.

 

[Ed DeGenaro]

Originally posted by elambo
I've only ever used the Hotplate with the speaker out and while attenuating, which is what I don't like. It alters the sound too much.

But you seem to be saying that the sound from the direct-out is unchanged? That could be, but I've never tried it.

Indeed what I'm saying...and what Cultreri been saying two times already.

 

[elambo]

Originally posted by Ed DeGenaro
Indeed what I'm saying...and what Cultreri been saying two times already.

And I never would have asked, except for this quote from THD, which I remember reading when I bought the damn thing:

"The THD Hot Plate is the first, and for now, the only attenuator that is frequency compensated."

Frequency compensated? I'm obviously missing something because everyone keeps telling me that the signal will remain intact, yet this quote says otherwise.

The 04 will be at my door in a couple of days, so I'll know soon enough. I'll post my impressions here after I spend some time with it.

 

[Ed DeGenaro]

Originally posted by elambo
And I never would have asked, except for this quote from THD, which I remember reading when I bought the damn thing:

"The THD Hot Plate is the first, and for now, the only attenuator that is frequency compensated."

Frequency compensated? I'm obviously missing something because everyone keeps telling me that the signal will remain intact, yet this quote says otherwise.

The 04 will be at my door in a couple of days, so I'll know soon enough. I'll post my impressions here after I spend some time with it.

Frequency compensated as in Fletcher Munson if you use the attenuation. But you don't you're using the line out!.