Ken Burns: "I'm not sure that I respect Eddie Van Halen enough to put him in the same discussion."

Discussion in 'The Sound Hound Lounge' started by WordMan, Oct 31, 2019.

  1. Thumpalumpacus

    Thumpalumpacus Member

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    I don't mind Jordan's tones through the clip myself (middle-of-the-road, harmless), and certainly share your focus on the bassist, who kills it with his support.
     
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  2. BlackT-Shirt

    BlackT-Shirt Member

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    If your entire underst
    I got the impression his role on the Jazz documentary was to be stenographer to Wynton Marsalis. Was there something I missed?
     
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  3. aynirar27

    aynirar27 All You Need Is Rock and Roll Gold Supporting Member

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  4. HERSCHEL

    HERSCHEL Member

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    LoL.
     
  5. Wyatt Martin

    Wyatt Martin Member

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    Burns opinion doesn't make or break anything for me.

    If we agree....Meh....
    If we disagree.... Meh....
     
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  6. russ6100

    russ6100 Member

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    Because I don't find any utility in comparing the musical output of those artists I'm "Intellectually lazy"?

    Never been called that before.
     
  7. HERSCHEL

    HERSCHEL Member

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    Remember that TGP is a weird subset of players, leaning heavily towards the boomer who is far more conservative than the larger group of artists and creative types. The acronym often could just as well stand for Tan Gabardine Pants.
     
    Last edited: Nov 1, 2019
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  8. brain-eating amoeba

    brain-eating amoeba Member

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    Simon said:
    The cynicism on TGP almost makes me embarrassed to be a guitar player some times, used to be musicians weren't so quick to judge, or follow the crowd.
    How many of his documentary's have you guys really seen?

    Perusing a Bass-Player forum recently (I think connected to TGP) found it surprisingly polite & genial in comparison to TGP....must be guitarists in general....:D
     
  9. jimijimmyjeffy

    jimijimmyjeffy Member

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    Had you put it that way it would have been somewhat less so; if you had made an argument not that they are not comparable; but that you aren't sure comparing them would be practically fruitful. But that's not what you said. If you had, I'd have just disagreed.

    Secondly, I said denying things can be compared at all is "intellectually sloppy", not that you as a person were. And that practice is often problematic; and is too often a psuedo argument people make in public discourse. I see nothing wrong with identifying a common logical fallacy during a debate.
     
    Last edited: Nov 1, 2019
  10. petty1818

    petty1818 Member

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    I don’t care about the whole discussion to be honest but I will say this, as a history teacher, whenever I watch a Ken Burns documentary, I am just struck by the amount of work that he puts into them. This guy literally goes above and beyond when doing the background research for his films. I try to wrap my head around how he constructs them and it just seems like an insane amount of work.
     
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  11. Irreverent

    Irreverent Member

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    EVH>>>>>>>Coltrane>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>ken burns
     
  12. russ6100

    russ6100 Member

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    I mentioned some things that I said can't be compared. And your point is that technically, anything can be compared.

    Neat.
     
  13. paulg

    paulg Supporting Member

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    It’s time to let this go. Musicians wouldn’t express this kind of opinion ( hopefully). Music fans say this kind of dribble all the time.
     
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  14. rockon1

    rockon1 Member

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    I'm sure that I dont know who Ken Burns is or why he would be in any discussion about Eddie Van Halen."
     
  15. Papanate

    Papanate Gold Supporting Member

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    You know...now that I read that I seem to remember that from a Guitar Player Interview in the mid 70s or so.
     
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  16. jimijimmyjeffy

    jimijimmyjeffy Member

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    not really. You are taking things that obviously can be compared in many ways and saying they are different things, so they can't be compared at all. Actually only things that are different can ever be compared. Your only argument rested on a logical fallacy.

    Reminds me of the LIMU Emu commercial -- "What do these people have in common? Nothing, that's what! They are completely different people!" Same deal.
     
    Last edited: Nov 1, 2019
  17. goldentrout2009

    goldentrout2009 Member

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    From reading the Burns quote what stands out to me (and I've just finished watching the country music documentary) is the line:

    Burns: ... I'll refer to the analogy I made earlier, which is that bluegrass is the equivalent of modernist instinct that took swing music and permitted Charlie Parker and Dizzy Gillespie to create bebop. String-band music was too predictable to contain a talent like Bill Monroe, and what he fashions out of it is Bluegrass, which has the same kind of propulsive virtuosic speed. It takes a certain player to do it. Earl then comes in on the banjo and represents that same impulse.

    To me this is 100% true. My dad played professionally in jazz dance bands (his term) in the 40's & 50's and obviously it was nothing like what Dizzy and Bird were starting. The music was boring to listen to but fun to dance to (i.e. it made everyone money). The same thing appeared to be happening in country music where dance bands were very popular but the music was boring to listen to. Both jazz and country music were still relatively undeveloped when their "saviors" came along (back then most music was heard through radios, records existed but nowhere near as prevalent as they became, and new developments in the genres was slow).

    EVH was a great talent who popularized a genre of music, but before he came along rock music was already very diverse. It had Beatles, Beach Boys, Led Zeppelin, Earth Wind and Fire, Chicago, Pink Floyd, Black Sabbath, Bob Marley, etc. Although the disco era was difficult for music listeners, it did not endanger rock, it just made listening to the radio painful and finding good music difficult. EVH did not save rock music he just made it better.
     
  18. Tim Bowen

    Tim Bowen Member

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    I like metaphors. I also find it personally healthy to acknowledge and accept that, while there's no such thing as 1:1 analogies, occasionally they can still be quite useful.
     
  19. Tim Bowen

    Tim Bowen Member

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    That is a popular viewpoint within my peer circles, certainly. Wynton Marsalis is frequently and unceremoniously accused of provincialism. From my vantage point, he is one of the very few true conduits between jazz and classical music, not to mention being a proactive, crusading ambassador for music education. I love Bitches Brew and Heavy Weather and what came forward from such, but nothing about 1959 jazz has ever bugged me, and if a guy like that is "static" - I'll take it. Happily. It's odd, "we" want country music to move toward the past, and "we're" pissed beyond reproach when other genres don't "move forward". Movers and shakers are gonna move and shake, not to worry, and they'll ask for forgiveness before they ask for permission. I don't think we need to worry about that continuing to happen.

    Putting aside lofty concerns such as harmonic advancement, for a moment: in a sense, it's the flip side of anti-intellectualism. It always cracks me up when people worry about whether there will continue to be visceral aspects to music. Ha. I don't worry about there ever being a shortage of guys and gals with acoustic guitars, capos, and heartaches. That quota has been met, and then some. What I ponder is the bleak outlook of a future which contains a shortage of guys and gals who give a szhit about what Wynton gives a szhit about.
     
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  20. Sweetfinger

    Sweetfinger Silver Supporting Member

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    Yeah, Citizen Kane can be a bit of a letdown if you've been told for years that it's the "greatest movie ever made". I have a minor in photo/film, and part of that was trudging down to the University theater every week to see Citizen Kane, Birth Of A Nation, Sunset Boulevard, et al., and even with a lot of context and technical appreciation of the production, I put it on par with seeing the Hope Diamond at the Smithsonian. Apparently others were like-minded. It didn't win best picture.
    For every best pic Oscar winner, as a general rule, there are three more movies from that same year that are more fun to watch, or more culturally significant, or have aged better.
     
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