Kid Charlamagne question

[Soundhound]

I'm playing a bunch of Steely Dan in a band (fun!) and am learning the Kid Charlamagne solo (as well as Don't Take Me Alive, Peg, Josie, great stuff, always loved it, never got around to learning it, though I stole from Calrton, Jay GRaydon etc etc for ever and ever...) The Kid Ch solo is not easy, but a blast to play. I'm trying to use the opportunity to learn the solos, then get to understand how Carlton was thinking about those changes/the choices he made etc.

The question I have actually relates to the basic changes in the verse, which are also in the solo in part. The basic verse is vamp on C7 for 2 or 4 bars, then it goes Am, G6, F6, Bb7. The way I'm treating this so far is playing C dominant stuff over the C7, and Am stuff over the Am G6 and F6. Over the Bb7 I'm still working on what feels right there. F melodic minor seems to work over the Bb7, to some degree.

How would you describe the tonal center of this progression (or is there more than one?) and what would your approach be?

thanks!

 

[Powderfinger]

I'm playing a bunch of Steely Dan in a band (fun!) and am learning the Kid Charlamagne solo (as well as Don't Take Me Alive, Peg, Josie, great stuff, always loved it, never got around to learning it, though I stole from Calrton, Jay GRaydon etc etc for ever and ever...) The Kid Ch solo is not easy, but a blast to play. I'm trying to use the opportunity to learn the solos, then get to understand how Carlton was thinking about those changes/the choices he made etc.

The question I have actually relates to the basic changes in the verse, which are also in the solo in part. The basic verse is vamp on C7 for 2 or 4 bars, then it goes Am, G6, F6, Bb7. The way I'm treating this so far is playing C dominant stuff over the C7, and Am stuff over the Am G6 and F6. Over the Bb7 I'm still working on what feels right there. F melodic minor seems to work over the Bb7, to some degree.

How would you describe the tonal center of this progression (or is there more than one?) and what would your approach be?

thanks!

Not the best person to answer your question, but I think the chords are C7#9 and Bb13.

 

[SteveStevens]

I think your instinct to treat the Bb7 as Fmin is as sound an idea as any. Amin G6 Fmaj all are in the key of Fmajor, then the Bb7 implies the parallel minor of Fminor. So it's just a blues! The way Carleton plays it always sounds very "chord of the moment" to me. It's intentionally disjunct. In a good way. I love that solo.

Steve

 

[cyguitar]

I couldn't help you but, look up Hank Easton on youtube. He plays in "The Steely Damned". The guy absolutely nails the stuff. He has a website, and would probably be a great person to pick his brain.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f3uOOf2DttM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VZs4pK-aBuE&feature=related

 

[russ6100]

That Bb7 is a tritone sub for E7, the V7 of your Am7, so just treat it accordingly.

 

[Soundhound]

Aha, cool. So this begs a basic tritone sub question I guess. When playing over that Bb7, if it's funtioning as a tritone sub of the V7 of Amin, should I be able to stuff that I would play over the V7 in a song/blues in Amin?

That Bb7 is a tritone sub for E7, the V7 of your Am7, so just treat it accordingly.

 

[mjm59]

I'm guessing that Tomo would have a good take on the harmonic structure of the solo section, too. Perhaps you could send him a PM.

 

[russ6100]

Aha, cool. So this begs a basic tritone sub question I guess. When playing over that Bb7, if it's funtioning as a tritone sub of the V7 of Amin, should I be able to stuff that I would play over the V7 in a song/blues in Amin?

Yes, but some stuff you might have to "handle with care" - let your ear be your guide here.

Playing that Fm stuff you mentioned is fine too - looks like LC was thinking along those lines as well.

 

[JonR]

Aha, cool. So this begs a basic tritone sub question I guess. When playing over that Bb7, if it's funtioning as a tritone sub of the V7 of Amin, should I be able to stuff that I would play over the V7 in a song/blues in Amin?

Yes. And your instinct about F melodic minor is right. That's the classic jazz choice for a bII chord (tritone sub) in A minor.
If it was an E7 chord, F melodic minor would be called "E altered". Over Bb7, it's "Bb lydian dominant". Same scale on either chord, IOW.
An "E7alt" chord is basically the same thing as a Bb7#11 (or Bb9#11 or Bb13#11) - only the bass is different.

 

[Soundhound]

Would straight E7 stuff work over the tritone sub as well (Bb7, Bb13 etc), in theory? I've tried straight B7 stuff and doesn't sound so good.

 

[Soundhound]

Yay Tomo! Those fingerings definitely help, I was doing some harder-than-necessary fingerings, of course.

I'm guessing that Tomo would have a good take on the harmonic structure of the solo section, too. Perhaps you could send him a PM.